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Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

"The Los Angeles Angels began to erode the day Tony Reagins took over as general manager and began undermining the scouting department. The team that seemed in line to dominate for a decade has decayed, and it hasn’t helped that major financial additions, such as Vernon Wells, were made without input from pro scouts."

This is NOT my usual cup of tea, but I'm surprised to see this in print from a national writer. Then again, being at the top of the heap always makes that person a target.

11 months ago Tiny wumbug 187 comments 1 recs  | 

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F-in TR

Bob Lutz recent book “Car Guys vs. Bean Counters” talks about how Detroits automobiles have lost quality over the last few decades as more and more execs are emerging from the MBA talent pool as opposed to the engineering and design talent pool. The product begins to suck. Terrible suck. Pontiac Aztek suck.

But TR begs the question: What happens when the bean counters don’t even count the beans?

by homercles on Jul 16, 2011 8:10 AM PDT reply actions  

Ahh, the Pontiac Aztek

Proof that G.M. hired some of the American Motors designers. AMC Gremlin or Pacer anyone?

CONGER, CONGER, CONGER !!!

by steelgolf on Jul 16, 2011 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Pacer was a noble failure, at least

with its extremely wide track.

The Gremlin was just a Hornet with the trunk hacked off, a terribly unbalanced, overweight car with blind spots big enough to hide a semi.

My daughter, ashamed of my suspenders?

by rspencer on Jul 16, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Party On Wayne!!

If the Halos don't care about the way they play, then why should I?

by red floyd on Jul 16, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

What about pintos?!

"Every time I think I’m out, they pull me back in" -George Costanza

by Howie's Batting Title on Jul 16, 2011 11:07 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Your answer is in the movie "Top Secret!"

If the Halos don't care about the way they play, then why should I?

by red floyd on Jul 16, 2011 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

That is NOT Mel Tormé

"The contract is brought up a lot. What it's going to take to get past it is winning. This organization took on the contract. I'm here to make them look good."~Vernon Wells

by George Kaplan on Jul 18, 2011 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bullshit.

Just go back and take a look at the full suite of Detroit product, circa 1973, to understand what happens when you leave engineers alone to do their own thing. I was there. That stuff was crap.

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 19 (53% of the way there, 57% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 16, 2011 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

"top of the heap"

Yes, indeed he is.

"If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base." ~Dave Barry

by LAASurfin on Jul 16, 2011 9:09 AM PDT reply actions  

No one here is going to defend the mess made by Reagins

But I wonder if Ringolsby has actual sources on this subject or if he’s just talking out his ass, as usual.

by dmhead on Jul 16, 2011 9:16 AM PDT reply actions  

We get the Rockies games on TV

Ringolsby has never impressed me with his analysis. I could probably do as well or better. You wonder how these people get these jobs and become defined as baseball experts when as you say they pull it out all the time.

Angels in 2011!

by tanana40 on Jul 16, 2011 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

your daddy used to work in the game

see: Joe Buck

granted I don’t know if Ringolsby’s daddy did too

by Halos in DE on Jul 16, 2011 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Howie....

IMO Howie needs to step it up. Despite his recent hitting streak, his RBI totals are too low and he strikesout too much. I thought he would be more dominant by now.

by bighig on Jul 16, 2011 9:17 AM PDT reply actions  

What???

First, what the hell does this have to do with the article? Second, Howie is the LEAST of the Angels problems. Third, you’re using RBI totals as an argument about a players performance? Wow.

by twinspa21 on Jul 16, 2011 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Howie

He had a chance last night and struck out. He has had chances this year and either struck out or grounded out. He is not the biggest problem for sure, but he needs to be more of a run producer. He is striking out on the same types of pitches as he did when he first came up.

by bighig on Jul 16, 2011 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Howie had a chance to drive in 3 runs last night.

But when he doubled the Halos hitting in front of him failed to get on base. Dammit Howie!!!

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 19 (53% of the way there, 57% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 16, 2011 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

He cant

hit the double when there are runners on base…..its easier when the bases are empty

by bighig on Jul 16, 2011 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

In fairness, it's pretty valid criticism.

His RISP is .263. With 2 outs it drops to .222. He’s also hit into 14 double plays, second on the team only to Torii “GIDP” Hunter. At this point he is on pace to finish with alot less rbi’s than last year.

The rest of his numbers aren’t bad, but they look much better because of his hot start.
6 of his 8 home runs came in April, for instance. Take away that great April, and he is having a typical Howie season with a slightly higher batting avg.

"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST

by No Bologna Polonia on Jul 16, 2011 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

.263 ain't that bad

when the opposition is trying to keep you from hitting at all.

by eyespy on Jul 16, 2011 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree, it's not THAT bad

but it’s not that good either. I’m not really even knocking the guy. I just don’t feel that he is above criticism simply because he made the all star team and has a decent avg.

"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST

by No Bologna Polonia on Jul 16, 2011 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Aren't opposing pitchers ALWAYS trying to keep you from hitting?

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Jul 16, 2011 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

RBI's?

He doesn’t have anyone to drive in

"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter

by ryanfea on Jul 16, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

in my opinion

howie is not a clutch hitter. he hits when theres no one on base. but when the pressure is on he hits into weak ground outs, dp, or strikes out on a really bad pitch. he lacks patience with risp.

conger > mathis

by ihigh on Jul 16, 2011 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

TR has had his blunders

but the one thing I like that he is doing is balancing out all those slap hitters in our farm system with guys who have some pop. Also for better or worse, he has made some bold moves that Stoneman would have never made.

The last line from that little right up however is scary and shows that the Wells trade was out of panic.

by mustang6944 on Jul 16, 2011 9:18 AM PDT reply actions  

But is it true?

Given how tight lipped the FO is, how the hell does Ringolsby know that? Again, source please.

Sometimes I wish Rex would be quiet

by gitchogritchoffmypetis on Jul 16, 2011 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is a lot wrong with that reasoning. Sure people make mistakes, and the kazmir debacle was at least a bit understandable, but...

A.) Basic reasoning skills would lead someone to think the wells deal was crap and
B.) this asshole is being paid a ton of money to put together a winning team, has virtually no budget and refuses to address the teams biggest areas of need.

We have a glut of outfielders, trout coming up shortly and all sorts of other needs. OF was not a major problem, so why throw 20% of your budget at a LF? Why hasn’t he attempted to extend weaver, why does he think callaspo is a solution at 3b, so many issues left unaddressed.
If we were the A’s it would be understandable, but this idiot is operating- from what we can tell from his own words- without a limit to his spending. Spend the damn money wisely or you need to get a new job.

by Balls and Strikes on Jul 16, 2011 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Disagree on LF

Juan Rivera was not an acceptable option in LF for the Angels in 2011. Was Wells the only answer? Obviously not, but I still would rather have VW out there than Juan Rivera and his poopy diaper and frosty-tips…

by Zaius on Jul 16, 2011 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

cost per player

if VW is being paid like he is, he better be putting up Puljos numbers (or Batista)

by Halos in DE on Jul 16, 2011 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's absolutely the point

One of two things should be going on in your head if you are a GM (or even a thinking fan)-

1.) Juan Rivera isnt the best option for LF, but he comes cheap and gives you more than you would expect for his 5 million dollar salary so you use the savings to fortify a different area of weakness- like 3B, catcher, or the bullpen. Certainly he isnt the best option out there, but those are the constraints of a budget and with trout doing what he is doing, you have a nice insurance policy on rivera.
Or,
2.) we have no budget limitations so we should sign the best player available at every position. If this is the case, however, reagins deserves to be fired for poor player critiques. Callaspo is much more inferior to Beltre than Rivera is to wells. If he is really operating as he says he is- without much financial constraint, he is absolutely the worst GM in baseball.
Think about it, if you had 140-150 million to spend on a team each year, would you want it to look anything like this team (outside of the rotation)?

by Balls and Strikes on Jul 16, 2011 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

So Cashman should have been fired after the 2008 season?

3rd place with 89 wins. $52MM between Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu, and Jason Giambi? $11MM for Carl Pavano? Think about it, if you had $200MM to spend on a team, would you want it to look anything like that team? If the Yankees are operating without any financial constraint, then he was absolutely the worst GM in baseball. Cashman should have been fired for poor player critques.

Or Theo Epstein after 2006? 86 wins, 3rd place. $17MM between Matt Clement and Keith Foulke? Really? Epsteing should have been fired for poor player critiques. Think about it, if you had $140-150MM to spend on a team, would you want it to look anything like that team? If the Red Sox are operating without much financial constraint, then he was absolutely the worst GM in baseball.

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Jul 16, 2011 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Second worst, thanks...

"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 17, 2011 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Cashman isn't a good GM

but otherwise, this is something I can agree with.

A wise man once said "never postpone to tomorrow what can be done the day after tomorrow. Except DFAing Mathis. Do that shit now, plz."

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Jul 18, 2011 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

George, you gotta help us out here.
Again, the limits have been made explicitly clear by Moreno during the offseason to now. If you don’t understand that, then your education is deficient.

…and…

Have you not been paying attention? Moreno has repeatedly stated the limit he can spend without running red ink for the team. It is largely of whether he and his minority partners decide to gamble on red ink for the regular season, hoping to make it up in revenue from postseason play in swinging a deal for a player they believe can put them over the top.

I have yet to locate any such exhibits in the public domain, verifies as having come from the mouth of Arte directly. It’s kind of an important point, because we have folks such as ’tizzle and grichgetoffmypenis proclaiming:

“We are not on an austerity program,” Arte Moreno

…and…
“Arte got paper”

So, even though I can find all kinds of commentary concerning unnamed sources stating that “the Halos are pinching pennies”, and/or “will not be increasing payroll any further this season”, and also observing how they are watching Weaver’s salary demands climb week after week this season without locking down a new deal now, that is insufficient information to hold definitive commentary on the subject.

Your sources would be helpful.

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 19 (53% of the way there, 57% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 17, 2011 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

No...I am looking for something recent.

Something that reflects current thinking as they approach the trade deadline. Those older quotes have been pertty well worked over here already.

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 19 (53% of the way there, 57% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 17, 2011 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

???

Why would you think that Moreno’s stated estimates of his profit/loss tipping point (approx $130M to $135M of payroll) would have changed in the last six months, given the fact that ticket prices weren’t raised and that attendance has been consistent with previous years?

I don’t see any reason why his prior statements aren’t as germaine in July as they were in March and December. And yes, these statements have been gone over previously, which is why I found the original challenge for quotes equally puzzling.

"The contract is brought up a lot. What it's going to take to get past it is winning. This organization took on the contract. I'm here to make them look good."~Vernon Wells

by George Kaplan on Jul 17, 2011 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because

THE CURRENT word on the street is in opposition. So I am seeking CURRENT direct quote of Arte to measure against the current rumors.

Besides, a lot of the hash around here on the earlier quotes included a lot of data and a lot of reasoning blowing up the claims of 6, 7, 8, 9 months ago. Just because we wait 7 months and then bring the quotes up again doesn’t make them less objectionable.

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 20 (5% o6f the way there, 59% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 17, 2011 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry, but you lost me

The link cited a few rumor roundups, so I wasn’t sure what exactly you were referencing. Since most link to rumormongers who are frequently wrong (like Nick Cafardo), I don’t know if you’re putting stock in the rumors themselves.

If the general thrust has to do with the idea of adding any payroll at all, then we go back to the Deadspin papers, showing the extra revenue the team reaped by making the AL playoffs. If a player is deemed capable of putting the team over the top and into the postseason, then Arte would approve the hike in payroll because that extra payroll would be offset by the playoff revenue increase.

Of course, there are no guarantees, so the ownership is prepared for the possibility to roll snakeyes and get nothing but some red ink for its trouble, but that is why it would be a gamble. The reward of postseason revenue makes the gamble very attractive.

"The contract is brought up a lot. What it's going to take to get past it is winning. This organization took on the contract. I'm here to make them look good."~Vernon Wells

by George Kaplan on Jul 17, 2011 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

the Kazmir trade was liked in the short term as I remember - beat Boston

but long term he has been like Charlie Brown playing baseball

As for Balls and Strikes comment, he has no CONCEPT of budget

by Halos in DE on Jul 16, 2011 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not even Lee Van Cleef?

"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST

by No Bologna Polonia on Jul 16, 2011 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

OK. You do have to take Lee seriously.

If the Halos don't care about the way they play, then why should I?

by red floyd on Jul 16, 2011 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's not complete without the music...

There’s two kinds of people in this world.

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Jul 16, 2011 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Those with guns, and those who dig. You dig.

If the Halos don't care about the way they play, then why should I?

by red floyd on Jul 16, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you're going to shoot, shoot.

Don’t talk.

My daughter, ashamed of my suspenders?

by rspencer on Jul 16, 2011 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Classic stuff

Alex Anthropoulos’ conversation with Tony Reagins?

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Jul 16, 2011 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Guess which one is Reagins

Swung on and missed, he struck him out! ~ Terry Smith

Angels' 2011 W-L record with the alternate red jersey: 13-7

by blast21dave on Jul 16, 2011 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ringolsby is just filling column inches

His knowledge of the inner workings of the Angels ended when he left the Long Beach Press-Telegram to go write in Seattle; that was over 30 years ago.

He is susceptible to the same disease as Heyman and so many other column writers, which is the need to provide x amount of content on a regular schedule. When it doesn’t flow, it has to be manufactured. Too often with these guys, the latter result is what is published.

As for Reagins, nobody will say the man hasn’t made errors, but at least he comes to play, which is in opposition to Stoneman’s hold’ em strategy. The “interference” Ringolsby references has to do with a philosophical shift from drafting kids out of high school to those out of college. The college players arrive about 4 years older but in many cases they have more polish and are better suited to help the team in 2-3 years, instead of 3-5. Trout’s swift ascension is the exception to the rule, while guys like Dustin Ackley, Stephen Strasburg, Aaron Crow, Mike Minor and Drew Storen (all of whom were drafted in the same first round as Trout) are playing for the clubs at the MLB level.

"The contract is brought up a lot. What it's going to take to get past it is winning. This organization took on the contract. I'm here to make them look good."~Vernon Wells

by George Kaplan on Jul 16, 2011 10:31 AM PDT reply actions  

That's an interesting argument

Are you saying you would rather have a GM who makes bad moves than one who is reluctant to pull the trigger? I’m just asking, because that’s how I took the first sentence of the 3rd paragraph.

"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST

by No Bologna Polonia on Jul 16, 2011 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well said.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 16, 2011 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

lol, true.

But he ’s concise and right on.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

PS

Yes, I know Minaya is gone, with Alderson aboard to thin the payroll for the suddenly financially-challenged Wilpons. But the team on the field still has his fingerprints all over it, and it is right to use him for the comparison, not Alderson.

"The contract is brought up a lot. What it's going to take to get past it is winning. This organization took on the contract. I'm here to make them look good."~Vernon Wells

by George Kaplan on Jul 17, 2011 7:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well said George

I think Tony could have asked, and gotten, some salary relief from Toronto. We’ll never know. I’ve said elsewhere that I still think that there is more to that deal than what’s been released. Both sides have been very coy since the day the trade was announced. But as it stands now, yes, he should have gotten more. Alex wins that one, and I too will poke fun at Reagins for that one.

But apart from the money, Wells had a pretty good track record of success, outside of a couple of injury marred seasons. A 30 HR outfielder? Sign me up.

Beyond that, Tony has more hits than misses. That being said, though, I could really care less about the guy. I’ll never meet him. But overall, the team is young and seems headed in the right direction.

But the vitriolic attitude towards him here on HH is….really, really weird. It makes some of our smarter people here look, well…less than smart.

What’s even creepier is that if one doesn’t hate Tony, people here just jump all over that person like their morons.

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Jul 17, 2011 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec.

Truth

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

GK gets paid by the pound for his posts!

Seriously – very well thought out…as always

by mustard_man on Jul 17, 2011 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Really?

You can’t fathom how the Angels lost control over the 2010 AL West? Injuries? blown saves, holds? Four big pices gone to to other teams? A playoff presence this year really makes a lot of this premature, I think. As you pointed out, only one of those GMs lost his job and for far, far, worse team management. I just don’t see the organization you continue to paint, I really don’t. The current position of the team and future direction (proven daily by the roster, call-ups, and minor league reports) is, to me, best in the league.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

This doesn't surprise me.

“The current position of the team and future direction (proven daily by the roster, call-ups, and minor league reports) is, to me, best in the league.”

Of course you think that.

by ~MMP~ on Jul 17, 2011 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

See it’s not like they only play teams in their division. You have one, count it, one season after the a win-now season of 2009 where the team didn’t make the playoffs. You’re making all of this doom and gloom about the team’s situation based on one season. This team has run like gangbusters through the division and have had one year off which we have about once every four or five years. If they stink it up this year, maybe you have a potential trend, but right now they’re simply in a division race. Nothing more.

As for the future, we’ve got it down to a real science. We play our talent and trade our chips. No one does it like we do. Our future looks good and we are still drafting and developing people who will PLAY.

Why do you keep mentioning the payroll? Payroll doesn’t guarantee wins. Payroll is relative to team and market. We HAVE to pay to bring in the talent that sells tickets, pleases television, and hopefully helps extend vets. What it does do is give us a chance to play our style of game with desirable talent that can execute and fill seats. There, we’re winning. It only makes sense that others would eventually improve their pitching and farms. One year away isn’t going to kill us. We’ll hit our usual stride and beat the team everyone is crowning champs directly. I just don’t see the doom and gloom, financially or competitively.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed - Payroll does not guarantee wins. But...

if the GM handling the trades/acquisitions is doing his job, there WILL be a direct correlation of payroll to wins.

A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.

by angelslogic on Jul 17, 2011 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

How is this year's team palpably better than last?

They’re 51-44 through their first 95 games. Last year, they were 50-45. If they lose on Tuesday, they’ll be in exactly the same position after 96 games: 51-45, and five games behind the Rangers.

Maybe this is hard to believe, but this year’s offense is even worse, scoring 65 fewer runs in the same number of games. The difference is in the pitching and defense, which has been 99 runs better than last season. Everything rests on the rotation miracle holding up in the second half.

Maybe it will, but today was not encouraging.

by Suboptimal on Jul 17, 2011 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you are almost starting to get it.

We are at a point where we will see if they are a better team. We have to wait and see. I say they are, others say they are not. We will see.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 18, 2011 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

lol!!

"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN

by 2pintsofbooze on Jul 18, 2011 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree with GK's 2nd paragraph.

Plus, there are lots of local and national baseball people who have had private conversatios discussing whatever happend with Eddie Bane..

Many people don’t agree with the Wells trade, but from certain angles, I understand the thought process behind the whole thing. I’ve written before that if Wells comes around and the Angels make the playoffs, all will be forgiven there.

The Kazmir trade had a chance to be a remarkable move; shit happens.

by wumbug on Jul 16, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wells

the problem is that even if he does well this year, we have another 3 years at $23 million per to keep him around. That’s much bigger money than we should be paying. It could end up keeping us from re-signing Weaver.

by jco on Jul 16, 2011 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Moreno signed off on the deal. That's good enough for me.

Another minor point: Somehow, Wells’ ’12, ’13, and ’14 years are at $21MM per.

The Angels’ accounting department possibly calculated that Wells’ 2011 salary==>$23MM – $5MM (Toronto) – $5.25MM (JRivera) – Napoli ($3.6MM to $5.8MM) = $9.15MM to $6.95MM….depending upon whether you calculate Napoli’s 2010 $3.6MM or his actual 2011 $5.8MM. Clearly, they envisioned a lot of money coming off the books after 2011. The numbers were going to be somewhere in the same ballpark if they had signed Crawford or Beltre, …….and I don’t think Beltre had a chance in hell of being picked up by the Angels.

by wumbug on Jul 17, 2011 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

The contract is still overpriced

But we’re “only” on the hook for $21MM each year. His gross salary (insert joke here) is $24.643MM/yr, but Toronto is covering the signing bonus portion, which is $3.643MM/yr.

Small difference, I know. But still.

And, no, I don’t think it will keep us from re-signing Weaver.

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Jul 17, 2011 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

The college vs. HS debate certainly seems like a shift in philosophy

There have been numerous stories written throughout the years arguing over which is better. But in Tony’s professional life, the Halos lone World Series team was noticeably college heavy – Glaus, Salmon, Erstad, Kennedy, Eckstein, Speizio, Washburn, Lackey. Of course, the secret weapon was a young international free agent.

Couldn’t blame him for wanting a little bit more college exposure.

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Jul 16, 2011 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

selling football tickets at CID

"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen

by IE Angel on Jul 16, 2011 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

COD*

"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen

by IE Angel on Jul 16, 2011 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

He was director of player development

But his role has absolutely zero to do with my point.

No matter what his position, he saw how the roster was put together, and that influences his thought process today.

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Jul 16, 2011 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am, by no means, a TR apologist, but...

Any time I read a posting/column/article by a member of the mainstream baseball media – especially one that has been around for a very long time – who bemoans some baseball front office being antagonistic to the team scouting department, all I hear is:

“That goddamned GM is cutting my long time good ol’ boy network and beer/golf buddies, whom I have been using for inside information for decades!!! I am not going to take that standing up.”

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 19 (53% of the way there, 57% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 16, 2011 11:04 AM PDT reply actions  

You should see me with semicolons!

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 19 (53% of the way there, 57% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 16, 2011 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

At least the strident defenders of old-timey baseball culture have got Tony's back

I was afraid there was no one left to stick up for the guy now that fans, analysts, player agents, and even his fellow GMs have all openly mocked his baseball perspicacity.

by Suboptimal on Jul 16, 2011 12:30 PM PDT reply actions  

It's going to be so funny when he prevails...

so funny.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 1:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Define "prevails".

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 19 (53% of the way there, 57% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 17, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hard to define...

Expectations change, circumstances change, life is fluid. I predict victory for this guy and our team under his direction. At this point, AL West, players prove team is well put together. I still think we win it all. We’re still coming together. It’s funny, because once we become the “it” team, you’ll start seeing lists during games comparing TR’s first four years with that of Cashman, Beane, and Epstein. I think you’d be surprised. A ring in 2009 would make it even closer.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Billy Beane ignored his scouting department also

  I mean, we can bash Reagins for ignoring advanced sabermetrics or we can bash him for ignoring scouts. Can we bash him for both? I suppose that’s possible but I don’t see everyone of his moves as terrible. He obviously missed on Kazmir, but the Tex trade was good. Wells is under-performing in the first 1/8 of his contract term but Dejesus and Crawford are doing terrible as well. Would things be much different if HH was running the FO?

by Nashdiesel on Jul 16, 2011 2:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Exactly! And the money wasted on wells- 21 million a year -could have gone an awfully long way towards signing a superstar player

21 million is around 15% of our payroll. 15% that could have been used to do so many things to make this team better but instead isnt, and wont.

by Balls and Strikes on Jul 16, 2011 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Um, hi.

My real name is Arte. I just want you to know that, even with the Wells/Kazmir deals, I’m doing OK financially, and can still sign WTY (Whose boss/agent didn’t really want to talk extension last year) as long as Boss Man doesn’t ask for 32 Mil a year.

I just want to let everyone know you can stop worrying about my money, and my cost/opportunity…. hell, I’ll let you in on a little secret, I resigned Mathis cause he makes up the best dick jokes in baseball. And because I CAN AFFORD A CLOWN IF I WANT ONE. Stop simpering on your blogs about how the bloated contract I let TR take on will prevent me from spending money else where, or I’ll find out where you are and put up an electric billboard where it’ll shine into your room… in your moms house.

I’m just sick of hearing how VW= no money for anyone else. It doesn’t. Arte can buy who ever he wants to if he wants to go buck wild and crazy. Just mellow out, stuff another Starburst or mini-Snickers or what ever got you so high strung in your face, take a swig of that Monster Energy, and cheer up troopers.

Sometimes I wish Rex would be quiet

by gitchogritchoffmypetis on Jul 16, 2011 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Re: "I’m doing OK financially, and can still sign WTY"

Then do it, asshole.

Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.

by snowhor on Jul 18, 2011 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

That means negotiating with Scott Boras

And Mother always said, “if you can’t say anything nice, refuse to negotiate with the agent who represents your best players.” Or at least that’s how I think Arte was quoted on that.

by Suboptimal on Jul 18, 2011 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

"take it or leave it..."

“hey, if the player wants to be an Angel, he’s going to be an Angel…”

two of my fave front office nuggets

I love this team.

by Downing Rules on Jul 18, 2011 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

You forgot the 48 hour deadline.

Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.

by snowhor on Jul 18, 2011 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't say the Wells deal was wonderful...

   I’m just pointing out that the proposed alternatives around here at the time are statistically doing just as bad. If Dejesus is only a slightly bad idea because of the one year deal Crawford is a unmitigated disaster because his deal goes 3 years beyond Wells’.

   It’s not like I don’t get the notion that money spent on Wells is money we couldn’t spend elsewhere, like say on John Lackey?

   Also you’re grading the Wells deal through 1/8th of the contract again. When we have a nice statistical sample of say at least 2 years then we can probably make a definitive decision. It’s nice to say in hindsight that Beltran was the obvious choice for a one year deal when he’s raking and healthy, but he could have just as easily pulled a Mo Vaughn and then we don’t have a left fielder this year.

   P.S. Trout isn’t ready.

by Nashdiesel on Jul 16, 2011 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wonder if you might be incorrectly using the concept yourself.

I’m not sure opportunity cost works here in the economic sense. It’s a very common and amateurish mistake to replace opportunity cost with a hindsight laymen’s notion of opportunity lost, but it’s not the same. O/C requires a limit of economic resources and a choice between two mutually exclusive choices that were clearly the best and second best alternatives. First, this disqualifies sports athletes (who aren’t widgets) because that is subjective. Second, it’s relative to each sport and team. Different teams are looking for different things and rank players differently on their “boards”. In determining opportunity cost for left fielders you’re most likely to conclude that Crawford set the price at 142 million for 7 years or 80 million for 4 years. If anything O/C justifies Well’s cost. At the end of the day, we’re not talking about a scarcity of resources, the team has OFs up the ass so even DeJesus and Wells weren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, VW and DJ were not in any way the #! and #2 alternatives, and these factors invalidate opportunity cost in this analysis.

I think you are actually talking value. When you talk about a one-year risk that’s only 6 million with a possibility of a horrible season, it sounds like a concept even more basic in economics than opportunity cost: cost benefit analysis. Even here, the cost of not having an impact, 31 HR bat at LF would have been detrimental to the team’s product value and their competitiveness. If we want to say that DeJesus or anyone but Wells was an opportunity lost we simply have to wait and see. I, for one, and happy to have a lineup where I don’t just have to wait every nine hitters for the potential of a HR. In baseball, 20 million dollars for 30+ home runs is the going rate.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Junk

Brian Cashman was appointed in 1998 and I could make a rational argument the Yankees have degraded since then, especially the last decade.

by Rex Fregosi on Jul 16, 2011 5:07 PM PDT reply actions  

You could if they hadn't won 4 world series in that time frame, played in 2 more

and consistently been the most profitable baseball team in the world.

"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen

by IE Angel on Jul 17, 2011 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Look at the bright side.

Bourgous, Trumbo, Walden, Trout, Conger, Kohn, Thompson, Chatwood…. maybe even a Reckling, Cowert, Grichulk (spelling?). Even Morales. When you look at what we do not need to pay a premium for, VW is a little less daunting.

Even if just Trout and Bourgous develop into MLB average players, and we hide Wells in LF for 3 years, it’ll probably be a pretty good 30mil or less outfield. For example.

Sometimes I wish Rex would be quiet

by gitchogritchoffmypetis on Jul 16, 2011 9:57 PM PDT reply actions  

Hiding Wells

From Opening Day until he went on the DL in May:

.183/.224/.303, with 30K in 142 AB, a BAbip of .200. 8 extra-base hits among his 26.

From the return from the DL (6/7) to yesterday:

.270/.291/.549, with 26K in 126 AB but a BAbip of .264. 14 extra-base hits among his 33.

Oh, and 10 HR and 22 RBI over those 31 games played. That current pace extrapolates into a full season of 51 HR and 115 RBI. Obviously, seasons wax and wane for any player, but it gives some indication of what sort of production Wells can provide the team; frankly 25 or more HR in a season from LF is something we haven’t seen since Rivera in 2009 (25), and before him, GA in 2003 (29).

Isn’t the intelligent thing to do to let at least one season play out before rendering Caesar-like thumbs-down gestures on the deal?

"The contract is brought up a lot. What it's going to take to get past it is winning. This organization took on the contract. I'm here to make them look good."~Vernon Wells

by George Kaplan on Jul 17, 2011 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

The bottom line is this:

If Wells performs at the level he has since his return from the DL, most of us, me included, will have to eat a little crow and admit that he’s been a positive asset to the team. But, notwithstanding his recent offensive explosion, I am loathe to believe the numbers you extrapolated above will ever come to fruition.

And, in regards to “25 or more HR in a season from LF is something we haven’t seen in while” I say this:

Trumbo has 18 home runs this year thus far. That equals a 35 home-run season. Although not proven, he can play the outfield. What if Reagins had not dealt Mike Napoli (.245/.353..553) – with 13 home runs in 53 games – and Sosh platooned Trumbo in left field and at first base? The team would have superstar-caliber home-run production from those two spots AND would have saved the paltry sum of, oh, some $80M, that could have been spent elsewhere (Beltran, Beltre, etc.).

A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.

by angelslogic on Jul 17, 2011 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

It always comes back to Mike Napoli.

Did you ever stop to think that Mike Napoli was not going to play for this team, regardless? Do you think TR undervalued his team’s HR leader? The coach was not going to play the guy, so the GM had to replace the HR production (at whatever cost). No ones worth 20 million, per se, but the corporation risk would be more than 20 million with a no-name, no-homer, replacement. Trust that.

What does Trumbo have to do with this? He is part of the 2011 team, not an argument against the 2011 Angels, plus platooning him undermines his huge stats. We could still add the players you suggest and be a better team, Shit, we still have room for MIke Napoli. I guess, TR could have fired Sosh, but what can you do if he isn’t going to play him? If I woke up tomorrow and Naps was somehow our new catcher I’d be freaking jazzed, but he’s gone…

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

What Trumbo has to do with this is that he could have matched or surpassed Well's production

for about $85.5M less. There were alternatives to Wells. The one I suggested was just one of many.

A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.

by angelslogic on Jul 17, 2011 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

OK, I'll play

First of all, Trumbo was a Hail Mary which worked out; the team had calculated on the return of Morales, not the beginning of the Trumbo Era. You state he can play LF? Sure, and Abreu can play LF, and Callaspo can play LF, and…just about anyone can “play LF”. But play it well? That is another issue. Just as Trumbo could “play 3B”, that experiment was tried in the minors and apparently wasn’t pretty. I don’t think the team benefits from getting the next Adam Dunn (albeit with a lower OBP) in LF by moving Trumbo there.

And why would any manager platoon two RH hitters at 1B? To platoon Trumbo and Napoli makes no sense whatsoever.

Finally, I didn’t extrapolate any numbers. That was the outcome created by B-R. I said at the time that those results [51 HR and 115 RBI] were unlikely, given the tendency of any player to go hot and cold during a season. Besides, they were based upon the time Wells has been off the DL, and don’t take into account the remainder of the season played.

"The contract is brought up a lot. What it's going to take to get past it is winning. This organization took on the contract. I'm here to make them look good."~Vernon Wells

by George Kaplan on Jul 17, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Let me clarify:

Napoli and Trumbo play every game. Trumbo at first or left; Napoli at catcher or first (or DH). Maybe platooning wasn’t the right word to use.

A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.

by angelslogic on Jul 17, 2011 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're still programming 10 players in a 9-man game

And weakening the team defensively by plugging Trumbo into LF. It is debatable if Rivera (who, in this scenario, would still be an Angel), would be inferior defensively to Trumbo. Rivera’s mobility would be about the same as lead-shoed Trumbo, maybe a little better. Trumbo would probably play with greater enthusiasm. In addition, you have moved your righty/righty platoon idea to LF.

Or were you envisioning Abreu as the everyday LF, displaced by Trumbo in those times he is moved off 1B in favor of Napoli? No matter how to attempt to rearrange the deck chairs, none of these ideas improves the Angels defensively in LF, and defense is a hallmark of the Scioscia era.

"The contract is brought up a lot. What it's going to take to get past it is winning. This organization took on the contract. I'm here to make them look good."~Vernon Wells

by George Kaplan on Jul 17, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

And has Vernon Wells has been such a savior defensively?

Sure hasn’t seemed that way. Barely better than Rivera on defense and offense doesn’t make him worth all that extra cash.

"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter

by ryanfea on Jul 17, 2011 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Trumbo is a very, very, very, pleasant surprise. Gosh, I hope he continues to improve!

Napoli is what he is, and is what he was. No one is surprised by his offensive production.

He is currently a 29-year old catcher/first baseman who, from the very beginning, was “behind” Mathis on the depth chart of catchers despite being 1.5 years older. At the end of the 2010 season, the Angels were faced with a situation of having five (5) MLB catchers (Mathis, Napoli, Wilson, Buddy, Conger) and 4 MLB first basemen (Morales, Trumbo, Napoli, Rivera) . Napoli was deemed inferior to all of the above defensively at catcher, adequate at 1B, and was reasonably expected to require ~$6MM in his final year of arbitration. Being a thoughtful person, please tell me you can see why Napoli was destined to go away.

by wumbug on Jul 17, 2011 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Napoli was only destined for the trade table

if the Soth’s love affair with Mathis continued. And it did, despite several comments Sosh made at the end of the year where he actually praised Nap. (In retrospect, it was player-enhancing, trade bait).

What was likely to happen did not have to become reality.

A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.

by angelslogic on Jul 17, 2011 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Totally agree,

The same charts people use to put negatives onTR’s account should include these positives. If you don’t think 30+ HRs in a season is worth $20 million, look at the production of these young guys and tell me they aren’t net positives. How much should we be paying Trumbo in the open market? I mean, so far he’s Pujols in a below average season, and that guy wants $30 million! Borjous? Crawford, got 20 million, Chatwood is worth as much as Kazmir’s 12 million, Conger’s worth at least Mathis’ 2 million, and Trout’s ticket draw has to put him above a $400,00 value.

It’s so funny how many people think a GM who was director of player of personnel for seven years didn’t go into the offseason knowing he had these chips to work with. Rather than assuming the team felt they could pay big for 30+ HR guy in a win-now season since they were ahead on so many young guys, fools around here like to play fantasy Angels baseball and pretend that these guys are playing against the Angels. You put these values up against Lackey, Figgins, GA, add in the non-Stoneman like balls it took for us to get Haren, Tex, and Kaz, and it will drown out silly complaining about $20 million and Kaz being a bust. Welcome to the big time, chicken littles….As gitch said, Arte got paper….

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I dig the fixation on Vernon's home-run totals

Now that Vernon hits home runs and does nothing else well at all, including hitting for average, getting on base, running said bases, or playing the outfield. Or maybe you just weren’t serious about this:

Ken McMullen is a guy I always use as a barometer for your basic good power hitter. The difference between him the modern appreciated "power bat" is he remembered to hit singles and spread the ball around. He’s often compared erroneously to people who benefit from the fraudulent slugging pct stat.

Vernon’s scorching .261 / .286 / .587 in July really speaks for itself even without the “fraudulent slugging pct stat.”

by Suboptimal on Jul 17, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

And here I thought somebody was going to do the jaw drop over the Trumbo/Pujols comarison.

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 19 (53% of the way there, 57% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 17, 2011 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Trust me, they did.

Then checked the numbers. The boy is rockin’…

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Tiz. I know the kid is doing well.

I wrote the story pumping him up as ROY candidate. And it is true that IF the Halos keep starting Trumbo at 1B for the balance of this season and IF Trumbo is able to maintain his first pace of home runs, THEN he will equal a down year for Pujols in HR’s.

But, in every other major category, no friggin’ way. Not even close to a Pujols DOWN year.

All-time Single Season GIDP Record: 36 (Jim Rice, 1984). Torii Hunter GIDP 2011 to date: 20 (5% o6f the way there, 59% of the way through the season!)

by Stirrups on Jul 17, 2011 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hehehe...I know, but the dream.

He does seem like the kinda kid who might strive to .290, though. Shit, we can dream. If he does .280/39?

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

wait a sec

you just made a claim, got called out on it, then argued for said claim by pointing to the numbers, then got called out again, then admitted you were wrong by saying “hehehe, I know”???

you are truly unbelievable

"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN

by 2pintsofbooze on Jul 18, 2011 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

You may want to re-read that.

The man called bullshit, sure. But he also didn’t want the side of the debate that put him on the opposite side of Mark Trumbo, which I respected. I could have made an issue but who wants to argue that someone’s even a bad Pujols. Its called a courtesy, brother…neither of us really wanted to get into it.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 18, 2011 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

my bad

you’re streak of perfection rolls on…

"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN

by 2pintsofbooze on Jul 18, 2011 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep, he lives by the Chevy Clarke motto.

“Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong”

by ~MMP~ on Jul 18, 2011 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't we all live by that motto?

"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter

by ryanfea on Jul 19, 2011 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have said that his production is below standard over and over again...

Trust me, Vernon Wells is not my kind of player. I’ll take a Kenny McMullen any day. I defend Vernon’s acquisition and his ability as a player. To say all he does is hit home runs is kinda silly. It’s not a fixation, it’s a role on the team offense. he needs to hit for average and his doubles are frighteningly low. I am a steadfast defender in the sense of the hate he gets regardless of what he does, before he even picked up a bat. I am a defender of the reason for the trade, given the market and need for a 30+ HR guy. I expect/ed him to hit to the tune of .300 and the difference maker to me was his 40 doubles. It’s not happening, but its not over.

It’s easy to make it seem as some kind of fixation with the player. I find it entertaining. I don’t mind being the Vernon Wells guy, even if I may have never said 100 words about him in my life before he became an Angel. The guy deserves a shake, and right now he is at least hitting the long ball, though his style of play has more than proven he is a high average hitter, who hits doubles, moves the bases, while knocking them out with the league’s best. It’ll all come together.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wells really hasn't done anything well besides hit HRs this year.

He’s been hitting for a decent average since coming off the DL, but his OBP has still been below .300 in that time frame.

That’s pretty bad for any starter, terrible for a player playing a position you would especially want offense out of, and absolutely terrible for an expensive middle of the order bat.

As you pointed out yourself, his doubles are very low.

He’s also played what I could describe as a below-average LF, despite all the hype about how awesome it would be defensively to move a Gold Glove CFer to LF.

What do you think he has done well besides hit HRs?

by ~MMP~ on Jul 17, 2011 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know.

I know he’s still wanting in terms of pulling it together. Remember, I’m a supporter of the guy, only a defender of him being traded. It’s kinda hard to answer. It’s like asking what a fighter has done except knock outs or why shaq is only good at dunking.

Unfortunately, he’s trying to hit them every time at bat. If he can adjust that, he’ll be fine. Until then, I’ll take the knockouts…

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually,

I think Wells was trying to hit the ball out of the park at every at-bat at the start of the season; hence, his poor start. Now, he seems more relaxed and his average has popped up as has his overall performance.

(That’s as many kind words as I can string together about Wells).

A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.

by angelslogic on Jul 17, 2011 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1000

A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.

by angelslogic on Jul 17, 2011 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I simply don't get it.

I think we’re somewhat past the basic arguments that have been well laid out by now. No one is asking anyone to defend why they don’t like the trade, the GM, or Wells. At this point we’re talking more about assessment. It seems a bit simplistic to micro-analyze the state of the team based on outcomes that have not become fruitful yet. It’s almost comical to use conjecture and speculation about how things are going to end up, what their effects will be when its empirically denied. The owner says the deal doesn’t affect acquisitions and extensions, you say it does. The facts say Trout will be ready in two years you say he’s a better outfielder now. You’re using post-trade facts to evaluate the trade? Beltran had played like 60 games or so each of the the last two years and is an injury waiting to happen. His lifetimes are very similar to Vernon and Vernon is younger. Though he has 14 HRs like Vernon he’s 34 years old! You know the team debated between the two players as I do. Over the course of the contract Vernon will prove to be the better choice.

The only point being made here is that 1) the Angels finances have not be sunken by a $20 million a year player, 2) that the team is better today because they acquired Vernon’s bat than they would be if they hadn’t post-Beltre/Crawford, 3) the verdict is still out on TR. The sky has proven to not be falling. This isn’t the hardest argument to win, most of you just need to be patient. Claiming a slam dunk 3 months in is crazy. All that has to happen is Arte stands up and says I can’t afford to sign Weaver or get new stars because Vernon is here. All that has to happen is the team shows no signs of the team before the break and collapses like last year. All that has to happen is Vernon doesn’t continue to improve in his hitting and get the slash line up as he hits the long ball. It’s never been that you don’t have a point. We already had the speculation/prediction debate. Three months is a bit early to claim that TR is anything but an excellent GM whose made some bad calls as the best do or that Vernon is not a positive addition to the team at whatever cost (so long as the owner says don’t worry about it). As we stand in this moment, the GMs win/loss record, competitiveness of the team, and management of player development is nowhere near the imaginary world you describe.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 18, 2011 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Okay, I get it. Patience.

But, if at the end of the season: 1) the Angels end up in 2nd or 3rd place with about 80 wins; and 2) Wells does not significantly improve his slash line; and 3) Arte states he cannot afford to re-sign Weaver (due to the Wells contract), will you pronounce, on this site, that Reagins should be fired? Yes or no.

A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.

by angelslogic on Jul 18, 2011 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

If those things happen: IN A HEARTBEAT.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 18, 2011 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

So, you're saying the rest of us are just ahead of our time?

Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.

by snowhor on Jul 18, 2011 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Trailblazers...

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 18, 2011 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I simply don’t get it.

NO SHIT

"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN

by 2pintsofbooze on Jul 18, 2011 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

*sigh*
You’re using post-trade facts to evaluate the trade? Beltran had played like 60 games or so each of the the last two years and is an injury waiting to happen. His lifetimes are very similar to Vernon and Vernon is younger. Though he has 14 HRs like Vernon he’s 34 years old! You know the team debated between the two players as I do. Over the course of the contract Vernon will prove to be the better choice.

This is the fixation on Vernon’s HR totals Suboptimal was talking about. Beltran and Wells both have 14 HRs this year, but Beltran has pretty much blown Wells out of the water when it comes to EVERYTHING ELSE.

Beltran is 2 years older than Wells, but also wouldn’t be our problem after this season. Instead, we get to watch Wells slowly(or maybe quickly, like has happened to Hunter) decline while he eats up a ton of salary and blocks promising players.

by ~MMP~ on Jul 18, 2011 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

No.

We have plenty of time to evaluate these guy’s seasons, when the season is over. I’m only talking about the offseason decision on the post-trade fact question. Certainly a guy who has played less than half a season two years in a row would be worthy of your double-take, would he not?

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 18, 2011 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

So...who do YOU think IS the best GM in baseball?

"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes

by johnnyangel101 on Jul 18, 2011 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is this directed at me?

So many thread levels, SBN needs a “hide” feature or something.

Anyways, I was wondering about this myself. The really bad ones are obvious: Wade, Moore, Colletti, Jim Hendry, whoever is running the Pirates on any given day. But where to go from there? Do you value a guy who does a lot with limited resources? Or a big-budget guy who brings home the goods every year?

I actually really admire the teams in Florida. Their baseball people, not the owners. The Marlins and the Rays always seem to at least break even on their deals, and they’ve had some remarkably big wins too. On the other hand, they’re rarely in position to take a gamble on raising payroll. Jeff Loria doesn’t even seem to want the Marlins to win, since he’s happy to keep his own revenues down and collect central revenue-sharing funds instead.

So how can you rate that against the likes of Cashman, Epstein, Jocketty, and Amaro? They’ve all had some fantastic busts. But they can manage cutthroat negotiations, usually against each other. There are also guys like Jon Daniels and Bob Melvin of whom I’ve tended to think poorly, when it may be their superiors to blame for their really bad decisions.

Either way you want it, I think Tony Reagins is on the outside looking in. He doesn’t play the “sell” game well, or even at all, considering how incredibly payroll-inefficient his team has become. But he also loses the “buy” games as well, getting outmaneuvered in every head-to-head with the big bosses. Instead he wins battles that others aren’t willing to fight.

by Suboptimal on Jul 18, 2011 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

So, you don't have an answer? Cool.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 18, 2011 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Disagree about the Pirates GM

Huntington has quietly made some really good moves.

"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter

by ryanfea on Jul 19, 2011 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

We haven’t developed a positional All-Star since Glaus. It’s about freaking time we produce some inexpensive positional players.

We did pay big for a 30+ HR guy… yet it was worse. We traded for the worst positional player contract in the game prior to the Werth deal.

GA was done at the end of his last deal.

Jeff Mathis = sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Fame inductee

by YouthofToday on Jul 17, 2011 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Howie

Jeter blocks Aybar, Bourjous will be there next year.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 17, 2011 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's about the worst metric ever

Perhaps the only less meaningful measure of quality than the Golden Glove is being fan-voted to the All Star game.

Why don’t we simply wish to develop competent, skilled, capable players?

"The contract is brought up a lot. What it's going to take to get past it is winning. This organization took on the contract. I'm here to make them look good."~Vernon Wells

by George Kaplan on Jul 18, 2011 4:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

How about this one?

Since Troy Glaus, the Angels have produced only two position players who have given the team 10 or more WAR: Chone Figgins (22.9) and Mike Napoli (12.6). Here’s another one. Since Troy Glaus, the Angels have produced only one position player to give the team a season with 4 or more WAR: Chone Figgins (6.9 in 2009).

by Suboptimal on Jul 18, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

And you can even about how much the Angels "produced" Chone Figgins

Since he spent 4.5 years in the Rockies system, until the Angels acquired him the year before his major-league debut.

by Suboptimal on Jul 18, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Aybar was close in 09 with 3.7

He is on pace for over 4.0 WAR this year. But point taken.

by LAA of A Fan on Jul 18, 2011 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

LOL, No...

No other significant facts correlate to give it meaning so its like uh, ok.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 18, 2011 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

No other significant facts correlate to give it meaning I don’t know what WAR means so its like uh, ok.”

by Suboptimal on Jul 18, 2011 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Do you really believe that?

Regardless, you can’t point out that there hasn’t been a 4 WAR guy and then not impact it. Well, you can, but if there’s no impact it doesn’t mean much. It just is.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 18, 2011 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Impact.

The Angels haven’t developed a single 4 WAR player since Troy Glaus and as a result (put impact here). If WAR is such a strong stat and the lack of developing a 4 WAR guy has significance on the state of the team, there should be an impact to not having developed one that did not exist when Glaus was here. Absent that, it’s a whatever stat, in this case.

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 19, 2011 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe we had to sign one since we failed to produce one.

Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.

by snowhor on Jul 20, 2011 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Do you know what the man is saying?

Do you? This is dialectics. It’s very simple dialectics. One through nine, no maybes, no supposes, no fractions—you can’t travel in space, you can’t go out into space, you know, without, like, you know, with fractions—what are you going to land on, one quarter, three-eighths—what are you going to do when you go from here to Venus or something—that’s dialectic physics, okay? Dialectic logic is there’s only love and hate, you either love somebody or you hate them.

by Suboptimal on Jul 19, 2011 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Appealing to the LCD, again?

That’s cool. That’s cool…

"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno

by thebigtizzle on Jul 19, 2011 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bourjos has already developed into an above average MLB player..

"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter

by ryanfea on Jul 17, 2011 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

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