Lyle Spencer's Mike Napoli vs. Jeff Mathis Retort/Rant
Seems pathetic and desperate.
10 months ago
Halo Hurricane
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That Bench comment
Makes about as much sense as “we don’t need Nolan Ryan, we’ll just get two 8 win pitchers.”
Light up that halo! RIP, Nick.
I certainly hope he wasn't trying to compare Bench's defense with Mathis'
I remember Johnny Bench. I saw him play and his accurate rocket of an arm throwing out baserunners. You, Mathis, are no Johnny Bench.
by Hoppity Hooper on Jul 21, 2011 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I have to wonder
Which of Mike Napoli (24% career caught-stealing rate) and Jeff Mathis (23% career caught-stealing rate) is the defensive half of Johnny Bench (career 44% caught-stealing rate)?
24% + 23% = 47%, and 47% > 44%.
Spencer-Math, where numbers can be used to prove anything.
Mike Scioscia has zero credibility to get mad at anyone, or anything. He is the reason Jeff Mathis plays baseball.
We should just give up
4,000 simply has no kryptonite.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Combine Mike Napoli's offense with Jeff Mathis' defense and you get
Mike Napoli
"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter
Ha! Amen.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
His future 1-2-3-4 in the lineup, though ain't bad.
Aybar
Fleet Pete
Trout
Trumbo
If the Halos don't care about the way they play, then why should I?
That is a great lineup to look forward to
But you don’t need to be Lyle Spencer to know that’s coming.
And that’s in his “Bourjos, Trout: Who’s swiftest?” section, which was fine.
I’d love to see someone like Suboptimal take on the opposing argument.
Then again, I guess there’s no arguing the magic number 4000.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 21, 2011 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Tough to use speed if you can't get on base...
… Aybar simply doesn’t get on-base enough to be a top of the lineup hitter.
Jeff Mathis = sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Fame inductee
by YouthofToday on Jul 21, 2011 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Guess Who Has a Higher OBP this Season...
Derek Jeter or Aybar…. …. Jeter by a hair
Jeff Mathis = sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Fame inductee
by YouthofToday on Jul 21, 2011 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike Trout would make an amazing leadoff hitter
At least early in his career, I think.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ah the days of this:
3B McPherson
SS Wood
2B Kendrick
1B Kotchman
C Mathis
The World Series they were supposed to bring.
I'd like to DFA Reagins
You buzz killing bastard!!
"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST
by No Bologna Polonia on Jul 21, 2011 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
ONE OUTTA FIVE AIN'T BAD
And hey, Kotchman is finally producing the way he was supposed to…just for someone else.
A wise man once said "never postpone to tomorrow what can be done the day after tomorrow. Except DFAing Mathis. Do that shit now, plz."
by Caseys Kiss of Death on Jul 21, 2011 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions
The story of Reagins' tenure.
Players play well only after they are dealt away.
"Grantland Rice, the great sportswriter, once said 'It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game.'
Well, Grantland Rice can go to hell as far as I am concerned." - Gene Autry
by Angelsfan015 on Jul 21, 2011 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions
This One Isn't on Reagins
Kotch was simply terrible for the Braves, Red Sox and Mariners. Getting hit on the head and the concussion while trying to steal? 2nd while with the Angels really, really effected him. His Dad has stated this as such and the results speak for themselves.
Jeff Mathis = sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Fame inductee
by YouthofToday on Jul 21, 2011 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
No, it's not.
Aybar has a career obp of .318, a .320 obp this year. That is no where near good enough to be a top of the lineup hitter.
Jeff Mathis = sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Fame inductee
by YouthofToday on Jul 21, 2011 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Numbers hold the game hostage!
Numbers, thrown out to defend any position, now hold the game hostage. It’s all about all these categories I can’t even define. Watching and enjoying the game is secondary now. Sometimes it’s as if the stat people would be thrilled if they just stopped playing the game altogether and let them give us the results through their computers. Everything is so cut and dried, preordained statistically, they might as well do that.
There has never been a time in baseball history where a position player who can’t hit .200, doesn’t draw walks, and doesn’t hit for power, has ever been considered even a decent major league player. Do you know how many position players since 1901 have racked up an under-.200 batting average with more than 1000 PAs? Ten.
This isn’t some new development. It’s the oldest story in the book: If you can’t hit, you can’t play, unless you are Bill Bergen, or you play catcher for the Angels. This is some seriously whiny, inaccurate, unbecoming nonsense.
by mattwelch on Jul 21, 2011 6:17 PM PDT reply actions 14 recs
It's not a battle over whether numbers rule baseball
They always have, and so long as we keep score and track wins and losses, they always will. It’s a battle over which numbers are meaningful.
by Suboptimal on Jul 21, 2011 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
Indeed
Spencer is truly a dolt if he thinks that “numbers…now hold the game hostage,” (emphasis mine). Statistics have been an important part of the game practically since its 19th century inception. As a general rule, throughout human history, we have come to better understand the world in which we live with each successive generation. This is equally true in baseball.
As Theodoric, Barber of York said: “Why, just 50 years ago, we would have thought that your daughter’s illness was caused by demonic possession or witchcraft, but nowadays we know that Isabelle is suffering from an imbalance of bodily humors, perhaps caused by a toad or small dwarf living in her stomach.”
I feel bad for Spencer that he still lives in a world of witchcraft, where how one wears his uniform is considered of equal importance with how he performs while wearing it."
by jjackflash on Jul 21, 2011 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Give Spencer a break...
… he’s just a caveman. Your mystical language of OPS+ and fWAR frighten and confuse him. But he does know this, If Mike Scioscia likes the cut of your jib, then you’re playing!
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 22, 2011 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely correct.
Branch Rickey was using metrics beyond the box scores back in 1954.
And OPS is almost 20 years old.
This search predates Lyle’s 4000 eyeball sessions, and this stuff is going on in front offices throughout baseball, even during games. Why would Lyle “I am a journalist and I talk with these guys every day so I know more than you do” Spencer be ignorant of this?
Mike Scioscia has zero credibility to get mad at anyone, or anything. He is the reason Jeff Mathis plays baseball.
Because he is unable to admit that he is wrong.
And he is only looking for the followers that are too lazy to find the answers themselves, to help support his initial posts on this subject. If he backs down now, he will never be looked upon as a knowledgeable author of this sport again. Then he’ll miss out on the fat paychecks that he is collecting now.
Looks like he might be trying land a spot with the OC Register's sports section.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
Eh
I’m sure there are fans on here that have seen more games than that fool.
And Sam Miller talks to the players everyday and he’s not a buffoon…
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
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by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions
See my brand new signature, lifted from Ken Burns's Baseball
"It is a haunted game in which every player is measured against the ghosts of all who have gone before."
well there is a substantial divide between sabremetrics and "old" stats
while i respect the sabremetrics crowd, i don’t get all involved in it. But at the same time, I won’t get involved in it like Spencer does
That statement you copied is even worse in this aspect...
…the underlying assumption is one cannot both A) use advanced statistics to get a better understanding of a player or teams ability and B) watch and enjoy a game. He’s basically decided it’s an either/or when it can be neither, both, or some combination of those with other factors.
That doesn’t leave the impression of a sharp, open mind. And I’d love to know one – just one – of the “stat” people he’s spoken to that would be … “thrilled if they just stopped playing the game altogether and let them give us the results through their computers”. Really? Please, name one. Just one.
The best indictment of all though is this, “It’s all about all of these categories I can’t even define”. Lyle, it really isn’t that difficult. You purchase a book that explains advanced stats and metrics. If you can understand CERA, you can understand WAR. It isn’t that tough. As a professional baseball writer, you owe it to the fans, the team, and most of all yourself to make that minimal effort.
by sothball on Jul 21, 2011 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
It's the standard strawman that gets trotted out every couple months
when some writer can’t think of anything to write.
by Zach (maestro876) on Jul 22, 2011 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Colossal stupidity -
So if I like stats, I can’t or don’t enjoy a baseball game being played?
Horse shite.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Holy shit...
They used to joke that if you combined their talents, you’d have Johnny Bench. And that wasn’t far from the truth.
That wasn’t far from the truth? That wasn’t in the same galaxy as the truth. When Napoli crushes 45 home runs in one year one year and Mathis brings home 10 gold gloves, then maybe you can say one is Bench’s offensive half and the other is his defensive half. Until then, Lyle, you need to shut the hell up with that Mickey Mouse style of writing. Maybe you’ll call me biased because my old man is from Cincinnati and has a whole room devoted to the Reds (aptly named “The Reds Room”) and I’ll turn around and call you out for what you are, a hack. You’re not a homer. Terry Smith is a homer. Rex Hudler is a homer. You are simply a hack.
Tim Salmon: The once and future Kingfish.
by Teixeira Who? on Jul 21, 2011 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
With at least 1200 PA...
Jeff Mathis has the 4th lowest BA ever
by GTFO Fernando on Jul 22, 2011 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I only have one question for Lyle Spencer
Whose dick did you suck to get your job?
Lyle, you are incontrovertibly NOT qualified to report on a major league baseball team even at the sub-blogger level, let alone for that team’s MLBAM site. Tell us WHO at MLBAM dropped trou and asked you to sign on the dotted line from your knees?
by Rev Halofan on Jul 21, 2011 6:38 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Just want to get on the record with this:
I am not related to Lyle Spencer.
You boys stick around--there'll be turkey and ice cream later!
by rspencer on Jul 21, 2011 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Be very proud of that, son.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
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by SportsChicken on Jul 21, 2011 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Ha! This is definitely a good time to clarify that fact.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
It is absurd that mlb employs someone who openly disparages statistics
why even do that, since you’re only turning off a really engaged part of the fanbase.
they should hire sam miller instead.
Access breeds corruption.
Spencer is toeing the company line of the very company MLB has assigned him to cover, purportedly on behalf of the public at large. To wit: us. He has abdicated his journalistic duty. But what does he care? He gets paid his working wage to hang with baseball people and watch baseball games.
He also has apparently convinced himself that his access grants him expertise but, clearly, his access to more information has not translated into any greater ability to master that information.
Mike Scioscia has zero credibility to get mad at anyone, or anything. He is the reason Jeff Mathis plays baseball.
by Stirrups on Jul 21, 2011 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
how can I agree with you
when Lyle likes Vegas over Palm Springs?
by Rev Halofan on Jul 21, 2011 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Nah. I never said I preferred Palm Springs over Vegas.
You are confusing me with Jackie Autry. That happens a lot.
I just put it out there as an alternate experience and pointed to the fact that it was closer. I also added that it was possible to build an interesting and viable itinerary there.
Mike Scioscia has zero credibility to get mad at anyone, or anything. He is the reason Jeff Mathis plays baseball.
One completely lacking in Pinball Hall of Fames though.
"It is a haunted game in which every player is measured against the ghosts of all who have gone before."
Hey, Whittier is even closer
If they hadn’t torn down that FARRELL’S ice cream parlor it would be the place!
by Rev Halofan on Jul 22, 2011 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions
the problem is he is "a face of the franchise"
not an ombudsman like ESPN rarely uses. He is not paid to critique.
Even though I hate his analysis, he is paid to make the team look good.
I still want to know what defense he's talking about
And where I can sign up to see it myself. Gotta catch up to his 4000 games somehow.
~ these atoms are liars
http://deemm1.wordpress.com
That is seriously disrespectful of Rob Deer
by Suboptimal on Jul 21, 2011 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was confused by some of his points.
He seems to defend Mathis due to the magical “CERA” as proof of him helping out the pitchers to pitch better than they normally would. Then when he mentions Napoli’s CERA, he seems to “pooh pooh” it by saying it’s because he’s basically lucky to be catching a strong Rangers pitching staff.
So which is it? Is the CERA due to the catcher helping the pitcher lower his ERA or the pitcher helping the catcher lower his CERA? The chicken or the egg?
CERA...
is like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny… it’s a total fairy tale.
Jeff Mathis = sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Fame inductee
by YouthofToday on Jul 21, 2011 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions
that begs the question – if mathis makes pitchers better than they normally are, why wasn’t he able to cure kazmir then???
I like this Command stat
This was so well done.
"I have something 95 percent of all those All-Stars only wish they had: a World Series ring. If I had to choose between that and being an All-Star, it would be no contest. I’d grab the gold ring and never look back." -Tim Salmon
And Why Even Bother
Staffing the rotation with the likes of Jered Weaver and Dan Haren, who pitch well no matter who’s catching? The team could save a ton of money filling the rotation with five Matt Palmers, who’d all turn into aces if only they were granted the opportunity to pitch to the great Jefe. With all of that money saved, they’d never get outbid for a free agent hitter.
He's basically saying Mathis is good because he thinks he's good
And when you bring stats up he says “he’s good because I said so”
Because because because
by river-z on Jul 21, 2011 7:22 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
is NOT!
Ahhh... Yes... Finally back home in SoCal!!!
by stuck in Romania on Jul 21, 2011 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Ugh
I have heard, but never understood the argument that those who like stats dislike the actual playing of the game. Where is the logic in that? It’s as if Spencer and others assume that there is an inverse relationship to studying numbers on paper and enjoying watching games. If anything, it’s the opposite. Games have become MUCH more enjoyable and entertaining since I’ve begun to understand the true value of baseball statistics. The more statistical information that I have at my disposal, the more informed I am about the game situations, match-ups, and the players and the actual games themselves become a hell of a lot more interesting.
The thing that’s frustrating is that I’m sure that someone like Spencer is smart enough to understand the very basics of sabermetric statistics if he just tried. It’s not like you have to be a rocket-scientist to understand the stuff. He’s just close-minded and has decided to put everybody and everything into a box. Very frustrating. It’s also quite evident that his liking of Mathis as a person has jaded his objectivity towards him.
Is this guy warring with us?
It feels like he’s been reading the comments on here and then rants about them over on the Angel’s website.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
there is nobody at SBN whose dick he can suck to make us stop pursuing the truth
and so he jerks off and writes that tripe.
by Rev Halofan on Jul 21, 2011 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well I sure hope he reads every single comment on this post
Especially this one.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions
This post...
from some “anonymous blogger.” That part made me laugh angrily.
Is there anyone at this point that doesn’t know that Rev Halofan = Mat Gleason?
"I have something 95 percent of all those All-Stars only wish they had: a World Series ring. If I had to choose between that and being an All-Star, it would be no contest. I’d grab the gold ring and never look back." -Tim Salmon
It sure seems like it.
But the crybaby brought a spork to the gunfight.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Pravda
It’s too bad the Soviet Union isn’t around any more, dude would fit right in at Pravda.
Jeffy has the 5th worst woba amongst all catchers with more than 1,250 PAs since 1950. That is truly historically atrocious. His offensive “production” has decreased the past few years. He sucks. He doesn’t belong in baseball.
Just the facts comrade. Just the facts!
Jeff Mathis = sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Fame inductee
Keep it up guys, Lyle is starting to crack
His professionalism is wilting under the lights of social media. This isn’t 1985, when mass communication was entirely one-sided, and a baseball writer could make limitless claims on expertise. Now the fans have the tools to their own pass judgment on rights and wrongs in the sports world, and a stage to voice them on. Rather than adapt and prosper, Lyle falls back on the supposed morality of the old hierarchy.
So let him tweet condescension at random fans. The cart has already overturned, and Spencer is just spinning his wheels. Informed fans are choosing other sources of information, which is the only explanation for his defensiveness here. He’s only hurting himself with self-pitying outbursts like this.
by Suboptimal on Jul 21, 2011 7:41 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
The Flat Earth Society is here today, singin' happy little lies
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jul 21, 2011 7:46 PM PDT reply actions 8 recs
I've coined a new term.
Since Mathis both pitches and catches, his new stat is a BERA – Battery ERA.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
It's always sunny in CERA world
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
by Quad Fin Rider on Jul 21, 2011 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Mathis cut the brakes! Wild card, bitches! YEEEHAWWW!!!
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jul 22, 2011 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Laughed when I saw this line:
if he [referring to Mathis] ever unlocks himself, he can be a decent offensive player.
I think it says a lot when a player’s ceiling is “decent.”
It's in Soth's pants somewhere...
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I like how Lyle seems to be channeling Stephen Colbert when he dismisses statistics...
"Sure, you can cite every single meaningful statistic from Baseball Reference and prove that Jeff Mathis somehow categorically sucks at everything. But we all know that Baseball Reference is just a collection of cold, measured statistical facts that reflect what happened in “reality.” And everybody knows that reality has a blatant anti-Mathis bias. That’s why I don’t trust statistics; they’re all fact, no heart. They’re elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn’t true, what did or didn’t happen. It used to be that everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that’s not the case anymore. This is why I base my facts solely on my perceptions derived from watching over 4,000 baseball games each year. And what I think I see with my own two eyes about Mathis is far more of a certainty than any of your egg-headed stats."
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
by Quad Fin Rider on Jul 21, 2011 7:50 PM PDT reply actions 9 recs
Did the same
Wonderful
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Mathis is Palin/Bush loving Floridian, as well.
Get ’er done.
"Bloody your hands on a cactus tree/
Wipe it on your dress and send it to me."
Wag of the finger to BB-Ref.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jul 22, 2011 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Fun with quotes
I’m an idiot, and so is Scioscia
by ReggieBullits on Jul 21, 2011 7:57 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
That might have been the most pointless thing I have ever read.
The man got paid to say basically nothing. His support for Napoli over the years elicits a “and this is important why????” response from me. Hacks are insulted when Lyle Spencer is called a hack.
We need to invent a new term to explain just how useless and non-necessary the man is in any capacity. Admittedly, I know not what that term is, but feel free to throw your suggestions in the ring so to speak.
"Grantland Rice, the great sportswriter, once said 'It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game.'
Well, Grantland Rice can go to hell as far as I am concerned." - Gene Autry
Lyle Spencer is the Jeff Mathis of sports journalism.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
by snowhor on Jul 22, 2011 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Zouch!
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
lyle has seen over 4000 games live.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Jul 21, 2011 10:30 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
That's now one too many time that I had read Lyle make the claim that you can make numbers prove anything.
Now I am not to be confused with any sabre purist, but this particular position defies rational understanding of the universe, and sabremetricians deserve all the support they can get here.
So allow me to put my money where my keyboard is, unsheath the Sword Of Logic to defend the use of applied mathematics, and issue a public challenge to Lyle Spencer:
Dear Lyle, “Numbers” are what engineers use to keep airplanes in the sky. If you can come up with a numerical argument that proves that it is not possible for airplanes to fly, and you can get 10 credentialed and practicing aerospace engineers who will agree with your math, I will personally pay for all future airfare for you and your immediate family, to/from anywhere on the planet earth, for life.
For the record, the manager of this site knows my real name and how to get in contact with me. This is not a challenge of false bravado, issued anonymously. I stand by my challenge, and I stand by my pledge.
Mike Scioscia has zero credibility to get mad at anyone, or anything. He is the reason Jeff Mathis plays baseball.
by Stirrups on Jul 21, 2011 11:02 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
That's hardly fair
Numbers are holding aerospace engineering for a hostage. It’s gotten to the point now that aerospace engineers would rather sit down at their computers and “design” rather than just build a plane, put some passengers on board, and see if it will fly. Why don’t we just give up with airplanes and all go play with flight simulators? Personally I would rather trust the pilots, some of whom have completed more than 4,000 commercial flights, to build airliners instead.
The aerospace engineers, with all their math
apparently no longer enjoy the act of watching their airplane fly.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I know your real name
but wouldn’t your zodiac sign be more important to Lyle?
by Rev Halofan on Jul 21, 2011 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm sure Lyle would put to the story of Icarus--
A myth or fairy tale to some, but the spoken truth to Lyle— as evidence that airplanes cannot fly. The two things may not be related, and one thing is completely made up; however, this is enough evidence for Lyle.
Sounds like a losing bet for you, Sitrrups.
there is an Iron Maiden song about Icarus...
FLY
TOUCH THE SUN
LIKE AN EAGLE
by Rev Halofan on Jul 22, 2011 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Three other points
1) CERA, which is one of the only three stats that make Mathis look anything besides horrible (along with his framing, and the team’s record with him in the lineup), is one of those newfangled numbers that Spencer is otherwise complaining about.
2) Presuming that he’s shadowboxing at least in part with Halos Heaven here, the complaint that numbers-lovers don’t even love the game anymore is doubly off-base. That’s because A) this is hardly an unquestioning SABR-tastic site, as a cursory search of the name “Rob Neyer” would attest; and B) if people preferred numbers to actual games, why are there 1,000 posts a day on game threads?
3) Giving finger-wagging lectures about your debate partners’ “tone” in one breath, while in the next accusing them of being bad-faith numbers-manipulators who don’t even like baseball, is, um, inconsistent.
by mattwelch on Jul 22, 2011 4:25 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
Agreed.
He’s not bitching about errors or batting average (old school stats), he’s bitching about OPS and WAR (new school stats). CERA belongs in that latter category.
Categorically dismissing all new school stats except the one that supports your argument is faulty reasoning at best, outright incompetence at worst.
I'm not very familiar with this guy.
Is he a complete Angels myopic homer, or is it just based on Jeff Mathis?
I noticed he also said he thought Peter Bourjos would be a consistent .280-.320 hitter. I love Peter Bourjos, but .320? Seriously? Come on.
As for Jeff Mathis, he gave no evidence that he would eventually hit. Kind of like Jeff Mathis has done during his entire Angel tenure.
I've got nothing.
He's just....terrible
He does have a Jeff Mathis feud going on with Halos Heaven though.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I kinda resent that he brands anyone who would dare question Mathis' place in the lineup as a "so-called fan"
So, what, a true “fan” must have their mouths firmly attached to all player’s dicks no matter how much of an offensive liability they are to a team? “Shut up and cheer, no matter what product we throw out on the field”?
Sorry, but I see a pitcher coming to bat as less of an “automatic rally killing out” than Mathis.
Rather let Chatwood get some ABs
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Or Haren
I’d be curious to see which AL team’s pitchers collectively hit the best in interleague play this year. The Angels’ starters were 4/17 (.235).; Chatwood, Haren & Santana combined to go 4/8.
I'd like to know that too
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he used to write for the Press-Enterprise
The local paper I used to read. I never thought he was bad, but his defense of Jeff Mathis is deplorable. What really bugs me is the way ANYONE describes certain underperformers as just needing to relax and let their athleticism shine.
Brandon Wood and Jeff Mathis might magically get better someday, but there is a body of work here that suggests it is terribly unlikely. Put Hammerin’ Hank or even Forgotten Bobby Wilson in the lineup, I really don’t care. But don’t tell me that a guy that throws to first on stolen base attempt is a good defensive catchter. He’s not. If he was a defensive whiz, I really wouldn’t care about his anemic performance at the plate. But he’s subpar at home plate and an all-time awful in the batter’s box. His performance is indefensible.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Actually, Brandon Wood *has* gotten better
.215/.287/.356 in PIT, after .168/.197/.259 in LAA. K/BB ratio of 37/15, after 153/13. And since May 31 he’s hit .244/.313/.444 in 99 PAs, with 5 HRs and 9 BBs, and only (for him!) 21 Ks.
Mathis had only one year in the high minors that would suggest he might ever hit. Wood had several. All of which just underscore Spencer’s delusions about JM.
Jeff Sullivan has also now posted a Mathis v. Napoli blog entry
It’s like someone dumping your garbage on the lawn for all the neighbors to see. How embarrassing this whole thing is.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
I like Lyle generally--but this whole Mathis-defense thing is REALLY eroding my respect for him.
Light up that halo! RIP, Nick.
HAHAHAH!!! That jackass deleted my comment!!!
I posted on his article that while he may not be concerned with the numbers, every measurable statistic indicates that mathis is among the worst defensive catchers in baseball- AND HE HAD IT DELETED!!!! It was not offensive, it was not argumentative, just a simple statement against what he believes so he had it removed.
by Balls and Strikes on Jul 22, 2011 8:18 AM PDT reply actions
As Lyle likes to say: You can prove anything with stats.
You got to trust someone who’s seen 4,000 games live
"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter
Mine is 'awaiting moderation'
“Brandon Wood was probably also one of the "best athletes in the clubhouse".”
"The world is made for people who aren't cursed with self-awareness." - Annie Savoy
Nobody would ever mistake Phil Niekro for being an "athlete" at anything.
And yet his ability to to hit almost equals that of Mathis.
Mike Scioscia has zero credibility to get mad at anyone, or anything. He is the reason Jeff Mathis plays baseball.
Wow (Lyle's a chode I guess)
He not only censors free speech debate by editing history, but post #7 by THC seems to be some propaganda he wrote and posted to himself under a pseudonym.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Can we extend an invite to Lyle, say through Victor Rojas or something?
Victory knows we’re not bad people. Maybe he can convince Lyle we’re just trying to help.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
I've tried that.
He replied he was not allowed to participate in chats due to being affiliated with MLB.
So V-Ro is all punk rock and breaking the rules by being here?
Kewl.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jul 22, 2011 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow. That's cool that you tried.
I wonder if V-Ro is all punk rock or if the “affiliated with MLB” is just a smokescreen.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
i heard Brandon Inge was the best athlete in Detroit
he just got DFA’d…
o_O
Jeff Mathis may be a 4 out of 5 defensivley
That would make him a 4.5/10 BECAUSE ITS 50% OF THE GAME!
This is the Nate Slater metrics approach.
Unlike this cat, my love for the LAA will never die.
Still terrible
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
And the Lyle Spencer Mathis love fest continues.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
maybe at this point, lyle is doing what he does just to intentionally annoy fans….the more fans hate on mathis, the more he will write fluff pieces like this. i mean, what’s weaver gonna say? “jeff mathis sucks, but he’s the one the mike wants back there, so…”
Well, personally, I'm done reading anything he writes
Its all the same anyways.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I honestly have very little problem with that article
There is reporting in it, for example. And Mathis did make a couple of good plays yesterday. If you’re going to do the fanboy thing, at least bring some unique supporting evidence to the table.
Evidence?
Spencer made up that narrative about Mathis striking out Moreland with the bases loaded minutes after it happened. It was his only tweet during the entire game. Then he goes and asks Scioscia and Weaver about Mathis’s “impact on the game,” and imagine his surprise when they both proceed to tell him about Mathis’s “impact on the game.”
I’ve never believed that “reporting” means the unbiased transmission of objective facts, but this seems to stride too far toward the reporter and away from the events. When a guy has caught just 19% of attempted base thieves in his career, eliminating Elvis Andrus at third speaks more to luck and a shorter throw than any kind of baseball prowess. Lyle doesn’t have anything to say about the stolen base that Mathis did allow, or his 0-3 at the plate with two strikeouts and a pop-up, twice with a runner on base.
by Suboptimal on Jul 22, 2011 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
Oh, he just bothered to get original quotes to prove his thesis
Doesn’t mean it’s correct, or that the impulse is anything more than base, but at least he added some value to his opinion.
I think his CERA argument is odd too.
Weaver has defended Mathis repeatedly. And why wouldn’t he? Weaver’s ERA with Mathis this year is 1.72 in 115 innings. Weaver’s career ERA with Mathis catching is 3.16 in 552 1/3 innings, compared to 3.29 overall.
Weaver’s ERA this season is 1.81…or 0.09 runs more without Mathis behind the plate. What is that over 115 innings? 1 or 2 runs (I’m too lazy to calculate it). Same with his career numbers; 3.16 with Mathis, 3.29 without. 0.09 and 0.13 runs could easily be credited to luck.
The math says it's 1.15 runs
.09 runs/9 innings * 115 innings = 1.15 runs
If the Halos don't care about the way they play, then why should I?
I had to respond
Now taking bets on how long until my MLB.tv account is locked. ;)
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jul 22, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Nice!
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
This article seems really desperate.
Note the crack at box scores and statistics in the opening sentence.
Totally sad article. He keeps bringing that spork to a gunfight.
Mathis did throw out the runner at 3rd, we were all shocked.
He did block a ball during that bases loaded at bat.
Also, a blind squirrel found a nut. It happens sometimes.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
The other mistake (among many) that Lyle makes
is the same that all fans with little knowledge and too much emotional investment make in every sport: confusing criticism of performance with personal attack.
We don’t “hate” Jeff Mathis, we simply know he is a terrible batter and sub-par defensive catcher who seems to have a magical hold on a job he isn’t qualified for. It’s the same in every job around the world. We all wish he could throw out runners at a higher rate and hit another 50 points higher. He cannot, given the years of evidence. We are not bashing Jeff Mathis the person, we are simply stating that he is bad at his job and is harmful to the team’s effort to win games.
Lyle takes this argument to a level we have not. In his immaturity and condescension he has revealed the false nature of his side of the “debate”. I cannot respect a thing he writes until he retracts this inanity.
On a more personal level, I asked my good friend, who is a Giants’ fan, if he thought they should trade for Mathis after losing Posey so tragically. The shock and disbelief on his face said it all.
"Working is the curse of the drinking class." - Oscar Wilde
by WateringTheGarden on Jul 22, 2011 10:17 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
The Pirates also rejected a trade of Mathis for Garrett Jones this winter
Which should further prove the point.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jul 22, 2011 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I actually think he would have been good for the Pirates
He would have A LOT more to offer in a Pitt. type clubhouse.
Unlike this cat, my love for the LAA will never die.
Like what?
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 22, 2011 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Just wanted to say thanks
for rec’ing my post. First time and I feel like the luckiest girl at the prom.
"Working is the curse of the drinking class." - Oscar Wilde
by WateringTheGarden on Jul 22, 2011 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah, yes..
…that
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
by SportsChicken on Jul 23, 2011 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd never even read any of Spencer's work before, until a tweet that Matt Welch pointed out in yesterday's game thread.
I guess I should catch up, so I can join in on the melee.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Jul 22, 2011 10:32 AM PDT reply actions
He's typically not bad
Before I discovered HH, BB-Ref, Fangraphs, MLBTR, et al, angels.com was basically where I went to read and talk baseball. He’s a decent sports writer, but the Mathis debate seems to have struck a nerve.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jul 22, 2011 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
The nerve that was struck
is called “elitist monologuer” … he cannot believe hat anyone else has the same platform he has spent years sucking dick to achieve.
by Rev Halofan on Jul 22, 2011 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I kid you guys not
I had an email conversation going with Lyle. He legitimately told me that he thinks Mathis would have made all star games if he got traded to Pittsburgh. 100% the truth.
"I'd love to see Mathis in Pittsburgh, free of all the pressures from his manager and media/fans. I think he'd hit .250 and make All-Star teams"
I cannot make this stuff up.
by GTFO Fernando on Jul 22, 2011 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Direct quote once again
“Napoli was a different guy this spring mentally. He and I are very close, and I told him I’ve never seen him that happy. He was free of Scioscia’s perfectionism and thrilled to play for a guy who let him do it his way. It doesn’t surprise me he has improved dramatically. You’ll see the same thing with Mathis when he’s free of Mike.”
by GTFO Fernando on Jul 22, 2011 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Goodie! This just keeps on getting better!
If Lyle Spencer claims that what makes Mathis so special is that pitchers know Mathis is able to separate bad at-bats from catching and that he can fully focus as a catcher calling pitches, blocking balls, etc., then what does the “pressure” from Scioscia about being a perfect catcher have to do with hitting the ball???
Napolis has had no problems hitting the ball even with all that pressure of being a perfect catcher.
This is exactly what Mark Whicker says about Napoli in another article
Maybe they are on the same page about Scioscia?
Premium in an all star game. And at .250 no less.
Only if the first 12 squads all went down in fiery plane crashes.
And pressure? If there’s one thing west coast baseball media is known for, it’s pressure.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, I wonder how Lyle feels about CERA in regards to when Ervin Santana is pitching.
Ervin Santana ERA with Jeff Mathis: 5.25
Ervin Santana ERA with Hank Conger: 3.42
Ervin Santana ERA with Bobby Wilson: 3.49
Also, just for fun, here is Lyle talking about how much time he spends with the guys.
“One last thing I should mention: I spend more time with Conger, Trumbo and Bourjos than anyone else on the team. I’m with them every day. They thoroughly enjoy my company and vice versa. I’ve been doing this work since 1971 and have covered most of the great athletes of the past few generations. They seem to like the perspective I bring in telling them about players that are only names in record books to them. I have no more bias toward Mathis than Scioscia does. Just thought you should know that. Hank actually thanked me recently for advising him that he was being too hard on himself and that he needed to loosen up and let his ability flow rather than worrying about too many things.”
Yeah, screw empirical data!
It has the word “empire” in it!
I hope Lyle can recall every at-bat of all 4,000 of those games, because I know a few important metrics that can. And they have less bias than him.
Lyle debunks CERA with his own words in his latest article
Weaver’s career ERA with Mathis catching is 3.16 in 552 1/3 innings, compared to 3.29 overall.
A 0.13 ERA difference over 1050 IP! CERA!!!!!!
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
That really sums it up, doesn't it?
The unspoken assumption is that Mathis’s pitcher-handling skills offsets his ineptitude with the stick. Well, Mathis costs the team an average of 0.25 runs on offense every time he takes the field. Supposing he does have some magical ability to make pitchers pitch better, could any catcher make up the 0.25 runs he’d need just to break even? He’d actually have to do considerably better than that to actually add value to the team, considering what other catching options have to offer.
Or maybe they really are just fools waiting on a 28 year-old, who has never shown any competence with a bat, to finally “unlock himself.”
statistics don't mean crap to him
but watching 4k games does? isn’t that a stat? and doesn’t he uses CERA to tout Mathis.
Mathis is one of the 10 best he's ever seen.
He told me he’s close to Pudge because he didn’t like Pudge’s ability to call a game.
Pudge's inability to call a game is why he likes him?
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
by Halo Hurricane on Jul 22, 2011 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
No, it's why Mathis is better.
#LyleSpencerIsDumb and #JeffMathisFacts need to trend on twitter.
by GTFO Fernando on Jul 22, 2011 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
God Mathis sucks.
I don’t need any numbers, stats or 4,000 games watched to figure that out.
YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARKSIDE.....
But hey, if the Halos ever make the post-season...
then JM has got to be our #1 catcher. (9 for 20 with 5 2Bs). Until then, forget it.
First Angels Home Game: September 04, 1969
Lyle Sphincter won't let our comments onto his blog, but he allows this one...
I’m baffled by the so-called professional ethic of bloggers on a certain pro-Angels site. Since Lyle’s name is out there, these people should have to reveal their identities. This flat crosses the line. How in the world can they get money from responsible advertisers and have a respectable national editing staff with this language? I am beyond shock. I’m sorry this needs to be addressed. Speech should be protected at all costs, anonymous speech shouldn’t be when it done in public forums and is that personally offensive and defaming.
Lyle doesn’t allow free speech either Mike Diapolito.
Mathis is a sign of The Apocalypse.
"And God looked upon The Angels lineup, and, behold, it was corrupt."
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