Who Should be the Angels Closer?
Is it time to make a change?
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Stick with Walden for now.
But Scioscia also has to be less rigid with his relief-pitcher flow chart and should consider using other pitchers depending on the situation.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
I don't know why you bother wasting Downs
on one out in three pitches. he should’ve been there in the 9th inning. jordan walden is good, but he’s not quite there yet.
as time goes on, i become more and more annoyed with the very concept of the closer. unless you have mariano rivera on the hill in the ninth, there shouldn’t be a set role.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
by Kernel on Jul 26, 2011 5:23 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Scoscia's money quote
“One thing [Walden] has shown is the ability to bounce back. He’ll get the ball in the same situation tomorrow night.”
There you have it. The legendary inflexibility of Mike Scoscia.
I'm fine with this.. I wouldn't want Waldo to lose faith and go all Rick ankeil on us..
Mike Trout- The Man, The NOW, The Legend
by miketrout on Jul 26, 2011 11:56 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Another mysterious myth(?) about modern baseball
Are players really this mentally weak? If we send Downs out one time instead of Walden in the 9th, that Walden won’t be able to mentally overcome that????
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
More Howie please...
I think mostly stay with Walden, he has the 100 mph fastball, and is the closer of the future
But in certain situations like last night, go with Downs.
- He only pitched 1 out in the 8th
- There were a string of lefties due up next inning
by homercles on Jul 26, 2011 6:54 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
Exactly what I was telling my wife sitting there watching.
It makes no sense to use Downs for 3 pitches, especially with the lefties coming up.
I don't think this is a major concern
The bullpen in late innings has been pretty damn good. Walden leads the league in blown saves because we play an inordinate number of 1-run games. I think it’s close to 40 1-run games now. If Walden were on a team that scored runs and put him out there with a 3-run lead more frequently, he would have several fewer blown saves and several more saves.
I hope that there is no truth to the rumors that we are seeking to trade for a reliever on San Diego or Florida. That is not going to make the difference for us this season, and we already are locked into Walden, Downs, and Takahashi for next season.
If we make any trade, it should be for a catcher or for salary relief.
That's the job of the closer though.
He has to be prepared to work under pressure and in close games
Representing the Angels in Sin City.
by maze88 on Jul 26, 2011 8:42 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It is
But Walden’s still a rook. Might be unrealistic to expect this of him in so many one-run games this year.
even being up three runs would have been in danger last night
bases loaded, 1 out, imploding pitcher is a recipe for disaster for any game that isn’t laughably out of reach.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
I understand that it's the closer's job
My point is that our bullpen — and Walden is particular — have had a much more difficult job than other bullpens and closers because of the lack of run support and unusually high number of 1-run games. In fact, despite the horrible performances by Jepsen and Kohn, our bullpen has the third-lowest ERA in the American League. In general, this has not been a major concern for us. Not scoring runs has been.
Couldn't agree more
The Angels overall ERA is #1 in the AL. We’re fourth in fielding but only 11th in runs scored out of 14 teams. Only Seattle, Oakland and the Twins have scored fewer runs than we have. The real problem here in hitting. Unless the Angels start scoring more runs the postseason will become a pipe dream.
Correction
Angels are hitting the ball ok, just not with RISP.
Downs has probably saved as many games in the 8th as Walden has in the 9th
He is good at killing the other team’s momentum late in the game when they are staging the come back. We should keep the roles as they are now, unless we wind up with Heath Bell or someone like that in the next few days.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Jul 26, 2011 8:40 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Downs should pitch the most crucial stretch of the game
Whether that is the 8th or 9th inning is inconsequential. If the meat of the order is up in the 8th pitch Downs then, if it is due up in the 9th let him close. He is the best arm in the bullpen and should be used accordingly. That is why I picked “by committee.”
by JeffJoiner on Jul 26, 2011 8:40 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
this right here
whatever that most important time is, let him pitch it. he is the veteran and ace of the bullpen.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Seemingly
I haven’t reviewed game logs to verify this, but it sure feels as though Downs has pitched in many more high leverage situations that Walden, which is as it should be. I do not subscribe to the “best reliever pitches the 9th inning” school of thought. When Walden pitches the 9th, even if it’s a 1-run game, he comes in with nobody on base. On the other hand, Downs often gets called upon in the 7th or 8th innings to get out of a jam. He may only need to record one or two outs, but he needs to do so right away.
This is at least the second time Downs has faced only one batter and thrown fewer than ten pitches, only to be replaced the next inning by a new pitcher who blew the game. Downs should have pitched the 9th inning yesterday because he was already in the game, and one more inning would not have made him unavailable to pitch today.
Stick with Walden.
Fire Sosh. Hire a manager that will just look good in a uniform.
The attention given to brantley on first yesterday, with multiple pick-off attempts was pathetic. No, walden won’t hold the runner, and no, mathis won’t throw anybody out.
Concentrate on the batter. Win game. Hear the lamentation of their women.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Jul 26, 2011 8:40 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
But why not at least allow Downs to pitch to Brantley?
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
More Howie please...
It's the quinessential problem with modern baseball
This nonsensical approach to managing. My gosh, we’re up one in the ninth, we HAVE TO BRING IN THE “CLOSER”…It defies logic.
NA, #34 SP, LAA
Light up the Halo for Nick!
More Howie please...
The frustrating part is
what manager has more job security that our own Scioscia? Of anyone, he should be the manager that feels confident enough to try something different. Last night was a perfect example of a game where you let your lefty relief ace finish off the game due to situation.
Unfortunately, Scioscia is more rigid in sticking with relief roles than any other manager in baseball. Which is a real shame since this particular pen would be perfect to experiment with bringing in guys based on situation rather than inning. Hopefully one day soon some maverick manager out there sees this inefficiently and exploits it, starting the chain of events to destroy these set bullpen roles forever.
As much as we would love for Scioscia to start managing differently than every other manager
It’s not going to happen. Yes, managers are stupid. They should screw the save statistic (which is a terrible stat anyway) and manage the ninth based on the best pitcher available for the particular hitter. But they don’t. We have to live with it. To hold Scioscia responsible for not bucking the trend of 29 other organizations is asking a bit too much, in my opinion. Especially since whoever we’d get to replace him would do the exact same thing.
Walden is close enough to our best reliever that I’m fine with him sticking in the closer role. We’re grooming him for that position, so it’s best to let him get the experience now. Five of his seven blow saves were one-run leads. One of them was a mess that Scott Downs left him, actually. One of them would never have happened had the umpires not had their heads up their butts.
Should Downs have come out to face the lefties last night? Yeah, probably. But Downs has seemed to struggle when he’s had to sit between innings before coming out again. I have no idea where I can find stats on that, but it’s been my general observation.
In any job, people like to have defined roles. Plenty of pitchers have come out and said that they like having a set spot in the bullpen rotation. It gives them a good mindset to go out and say, “This is MY inning. I’m going to shut it down.” They like having ownership of that. I don’t know if that increases their performance, or, if it does, whether that benefit is worth the cost of losing a platoon advantage or putting a lesser reliever in a higher leverage situation. I imagine we’re talking really small numbers here, but I admit I have no idea. I just don’t think Scioscia’s bullpen management techniques have cost the Angels anything over how any other manager would do it.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
by Gorbachav5 on Jul 26, 2011 9:41 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Proof by cliché
Plenty of pitchers have come out and said that they like having a set spot in the bullpen rotation. It gives them a good mindset to go out and say, "This is MY inning. I’m going to shut it down." They like having ownership of that. I don’t know if that increases their performance, or, if it does, whether that benefit is worth the cost of losing a platoon advantage or putting a lesser reliever in a higher leverage situation.
This is the argument that always gets used in support of the Bullpen Role Theory. I have never seen (1) any non-anecdotal evidence that relief pitchers actually feel this way, or (2) any non-anecdotal evidence that their feeling so would affect their performance. It’s a “baseball fact” in the same way that “staying within your mechanics” is a baseball fact. It’s something that people say to justify the way things are after the fact. It’s not the reason why things are the way they are.
I mean, suppose relief pitchers do feel really strongly that they need well-defined roles. Well, who decides what those roles are? The “fireman” was a well-defined role before the closer was invented. He was the ace reliever who came into the game in a really tight spot, no matter what inning, and stayed in until the other team had been shut down. At some point, the world went from firemen to closers without heads exploding and baseball ceasing to exist.
Pitching is a skill. Pitching the seventh inning is not. If a pitcher is genuinely good at what he does, he should be able to do it whenever his manager asks him. Let winning define the roles, and don’t let the roles interfere with winning.
by Suboptimal on Jul 26, 2011 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're not going to find more than anecdotal evidence
Simply because it’s preference. (Similarly, you’re also not going to find more than anecdotal evidence that Scioscia is the Angels front office.) I’ve seen a number of interviews with pitchers where they express that sentiment. However, as I clearly state in my comment, I don’t know how much affect it has, if any. If it has an effect, it’s probably small. We’re talking about really subjective things here. Scioscia is a manager of people. He’s doing that in the best way he knows how, and it hasn’t seemed to cost the Angels more than any other manager would.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Yes, I've seen the interviews too
My reaction is always, “who the hell cares?” I’d rather teach a class from 11:00 to 12:00 than one from 1:00 to 2:00, but I can do either one just as well (or poorly, if you ask the students who write my reviews), so long as I know the material.
Then the argument would go that “pitching under pressure” is a special ability. Well, there is actually evidence against that conclusion. Just about every pitcher pitches slightly worse once guys start getting on base, but if you’re facing the same batter, the first out in the ninth inning is the same as the first out in the sixth inning.
You can’t pitch in the major leagues unless you’re already okay with 50,000 people staring right at you, plus however many other thousands or even millions following on TV and radio. It makes sense to me that overcoming that is 99% of the psychological challenge, with the rest coming from the specific game situation.
But I agree with you on your latter point. I don’t think Mike Scioscia is really any worse at in-game managing than any other alternative. These guys all come from the same culture that preaches the same principles. All managers cost their teams runs versus the optimal strategy, but at least it’s an even field so long as every is calling the same suboptimal plays.
For this reason, I’ve even tried to lay off of criticizing the specific decisions Scioscia makes during the game (although I may never get over that ridiculous suicide squeeze against Boston in 2008). However, I’m not going to lay off the long-term decision-making that costs the team wins over the course of the season (see: Mathis, Jeff).
by Suboptimal on Jul 26, 2011 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, but
would you rather teach on tuesday from 10-11AM or on Friday 4-5PM? Which situation is more difficult to focus? I know I perform better when I’m not thinking about that beer waiting for me at home.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Jul 26, 2011 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Either way, I can get through it without killing anyone
And if I had to do Friday 4-5 PM for the next 5 years, I would become so used to it that anything else would disrupt my usual pattern.
Rec'd for "Pitching is a skill. Pitching the seventh inning is not."
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
Good post
Although I think there is a very strong case to abandon the use of closers, it is important to recall that Scioscia is no different than every other manager in baseball. We should just be thankful that, as these things go, we have two very capable late-inning pitchers in Downs and Walden. Compared to last year — Fuentes and Rodney — that is an incredible upgrade.
I cant believe we are overreacting ove 1 game
Its ridiculous
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by mathisrocks5 on Jul 26, 2011 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Ridiculous.
“You know what hurst most, the lack of respect…well the other thing hurts the most. But you know what hurts the second most, the lack of respect. Ridiculous. I have a good mind to go to the warden about this. Ridiculous.”
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
Haha...Norm Macdonald/Dirty Work?
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Jul 26, 2011 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Correct. You win the internet.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
Just one internet? I don't even get out of bed for less than All the Internetz.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Jul 26, 2011 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, the prize for that quote was only one internet.
You’ll have to address your complaint to the International Internet Prize & Award Commission.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
No, he should contact Al Gore, internet inventor extraordinaire.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
by angelslogic on Jul 26, 2011 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Who do you think chairs the commission?
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
hehe
"We are not on an austerity program," Arte Moreno
by thebigtizzle on Jul 26, 2011 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
If we're overreacting, it's over 7 games. Not one.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Jul 26, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
I like Walden a lot, and was really happy in the beginning of the season when he snatched the closer role away from Fraudney.
At the same time, the guy goes through stretches where he can’t find the strike zone. It’s worrisome. He’s great, but I just wish we had a lights out guy again. I mean, Frankie would give us the same heartattack-inducing innings, but he’d still get the job done most times.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Jul 26, 2011 10:17 AM PDT reply actions
i want to see more sliders
that’s what everyone talks about. sure, he throws fireballs, but he’s also known for his slider. i haven’t looked at last night’s game, really, but sometimes it seems like he reverts to just throwing gas. a competent major leaguer can hit a fastball here and there, and his control isn’t good enough to make them swing when he’s off.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
well, he did plunk somebody with an 0-2 slider last night...
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Jul 26, 2011 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Ok, how about less sliders.
I want to see less sliders.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
by snowhor on Jul 26, 2011 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Jul 26, 2011 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't get the adoration that Frankie still receives
For one thing, he is an asshole. He also is very expensive. But even if you don’t care about either of those issues, he is no better (and arguably worse) than Walden.
Frankie’s 2011 stats: 3.28 ERA, 117 ERA+, 1.393 WHIP, 3.5 BB/9, 2.89 K/BB
Walden’s 2011 stats: 3.05 ERA, 123 ERA+, 1.234 WHIP, 3.9 BB/9, 2.44 K/BB
2002
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Jul 26, 2011 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
There needs to be a new term in the English language.
We need something that means roughly the equivalent of
“urban myth”
and
“something that 30 groups of people invent and adhere to based on peer pressure and a pretty strong defiance of logic and opportunity, and impose upon an entire country”.
And then we can tag that new term to be the definition of “baseball closer”.
Mike Scioscia has zero credibility to get mad at anyone, or anything. He is the reason Jeff Mathis plays baseball.

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