Angels 2012: What Needs to Happen
by Kernel on Aug 18, 2011 4:47 AM PDT
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PrintThe Angels are now headed for a second straight October of watching baseball instead of playing it. Here's what needs to happen to get them back on the right track.
First and foremost, Tony Reagins has to go. A good GM lets the manager manage, but also makes sure the right pieces are in place, and the Vernon Wells for Juan Rivera and Mike Napoli swap will likely go down as the worst player-for-player trade in baseball history (I figure taking cash for Babe Ruth will always be the worst). With Rivera and/or Abreu in left and Napoli splitting time at first and catching, the Angels are in a tight race with the Rangers and aren't grossly over budget. He's made a few good moves over the years, but the early wisdom of letting Figgins and Lackey go while snagging charismatic Torii Hunter and acquiring Mark Teixeira on the cheap are distant memories. Now it's the salary-chugging deals of Reagins' tenure that are killing the team, as well as Mike Scoscia's nigh-unlimited power. He trots Jeff Mathis out there every day because he's on the roster, and an easy way to fix that is simply to choose not to sign him.Hhire Kim Ng, maybe, to replace Reagins. Get someone in who understands baseball is about getting the best value for your money, both on the field and at the bank.
The Angels need to turn the page at starting catcher. Jeff Mathis needs to go. He has no business being in an every day lineup. If Jered Weaver wants a more defensive-minded backstop, Bobby Wilson can pick up those duties, but the other four games per rotational cycle should go to Hank Conger. Despite Mike Scoscia's insulting comparison of an outfielder to Hank Conger behind the plate, it's time to let a kid who can hit (and watch a bad ball go by) go for it. At this point, a .700 OPS catcher would be a massive boost behind the plate, and Conger's ceiling is much higher than that. Even if his throws aren't perfect, he can improve, and the positional value of having a catcher who can hit in baseball right now is worth some defensive shortcomings.
The Angels also need to be willing to let the best players play in the outfield. Counting Bobby Abreu, the Angels are paying an exorbitant amount of cash for three players that are all in obvious decline. Torii Hunter still brings value as a corner outfielder, and his offense, while subpar, will probably be just good enough to stay out there for the last year of his contract, after which it will be time for a fond farewell. Peter Bourjos' offense is good enough for the tremendous defensive value he brings, so he's still worth keeping in center. Vernon Wells, the big splash in the middle of the toilet bowl, needs to ride pine as the fourth outfielder. Sure, it stings to pay $20 million or so a year for a role-player, but if the point of the game is to WIN, he needs to be on the bench, not soaking up boos in left field. It makes no sense to dump him entirely due to the Angels' lack of organizational depth, but he shouldn't be starting. Mike Trout should be out there in left field, because even if his offense hasn't come around to Major League pitching yet, his defensive value is enough that it can make up for it while he comes along. Bobby Abreu might end up the odd man out, but he might be movable if the Angels take on some salary. He could still DH somewhere, perhaps a place like Kansas City, where he can pass on his wisdom to a new, young class of hitters. He's not ready to retire yet, but getting Abreu in as hitting coach would be great, and as soon as he retires, the Angels should be knocking on that door.
The Angels also need to stop counting on Kendrys Morales to come back and be the force he was in 2009. It is possible that he will, and if so, that can be figured out when it happens. For now, the Angels have a good young player in Mark Trumbo, but his light-tower power obscures his cringe-inducing on-base numbers. The Angels need to make a move this offseason and get that middle-of-the-order bat they've been missing since Vladimir Guerrero's decline. They need to get either Albert Pujols or Prince Fielder. One is younger and one is more fit, but both will bring an offensive presence to the club that will give them a fighting chance against a Rangers team in its prime while also letting the young class mature into support roles. If one were so inclined, they could even try Pujols at 3B to keep Trumbo and/or Morales at first, though I'm not sure it's a wise move defensively. One of the great fallacies of 2011 was counting on Kendrys Morales to return when all signs pointed to either no return or a diminished presence when he did.
The rest of the infield and the rotation is fine. Jose Reyes is sure to be a big name this season, but he has some pretty big durability issues, and going hog wild in the offseason after signing Prince or Pujols is a fast way to repeating the same problems the Angels are facing right now. Erick Aybar could be more consistent, but he does a much better job of staying on the field than Reyes. Signing a fourth starter to a 1-2 year deal would make some sense, but I'm also not opposed to letting Trevor Bell get another crack at the starting rotation while keeping Tyler Chatwood up. With Garrett Richards waiting in the wings, the Angels would be able to weather an injury (or suspension) next season without completely falling apart. I'd like to say Scott Downs should be closer, but knowing how rigid Scoscia is with his relievers, having him around when games are close in the earlier going is of more value than waiting until the 9th inning, when a game could be lost due to poor relief prior and his talent is wasted.
I think the Angels are fixable, and I think they're fixable relatively quickly. There's a desert of talent left over after the team pushes its last few young stars through and the new draftees start to move up through the system, but if the Angels want to challenge the Rangers in the first half of this decade at some point, promoting the last few stars of this wave of talent is their best shot at doing so. And while I normally abhor overpaying for free agents, the Angels have to do something big to keep up with a very good team in Texas, and signing Albert Pujols or Prince Fielder would not only put butts in seats, it would give their engine some horsepower. 2012 may be the last year Jered Weaver dons Angels red. Dan Haren and Ervin Santana are in their prime. The time to make the push is NOW.
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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I wish :/
Minor League Ball's 2010 Rookie of the Year Poster
If you didn't know by now, my screen name is sarcastic
Angels Need...
…a new hitting coach. There is no way on this planet that lineup should be a pathetic offensively as it is. Hitters look lost.
And, it shows in those players who have moved on to places other than Seattle… especially in the case of Mike Napoli. With a good hitting coach, he’s a monster.
Scioscia can be loyal all he wants… but, the team needs to put a winner on the field and they NEED to get on the Rangers’ coattails and catch fire the rest of this month and September. That won’t happen with the current offensive mindset.
And, you need to let Kendrys go… he isn’t going to help you this year. Get over him.
If at first you don't succeed, try the outfield! -- Ed
This is drek, and you are delusional
A summary for those who want to spare themselves:
Fire Tony
DFA Mathis, bring up Conger
Trade Abreu, Start Trout
Forget Kendrys (Does not say whether to DFA or not) and sign Fielder or Pujols (WHAT?)
Maybe sign a 4th starter (with the -10Million dollars leftover) and have Downs close
/I’m not usually THIS harsh, but C’mon.
by lightupthehalo29 on Aug 18, 2011 7:16 AM PDT reply actions
Not saying forget Kendrys
Just saying don’t count on him. They were counting on him this year and it left a gaping hole in the lineup. Trumbo’s done better than we had hoped, but it’s not enough.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Also
I didn’t say have Downs close. I think Downs should pitch at the most important point of every game because he’s the best relief pitcher the Angels have and is consistent, a rarity among relief pitching. I’m glad Scoscia doesn’t save him for the 9th, after Horror Show, Walden, and Hawk have coughed up the game.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Sorry missed that
I dont disagree with most of what you have (though the 1B signings are somewhat ludicrous)
by lightupthehalo29 on Aug 18, 2011 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Kernel - very good start, but you're not going far enough. This team needs an enema
Dennis Kuhl needs to go.
John Carpino needs to go.
Tony Reagins needs to go.
Ken Forsch needs to go.
Mike Butcher needs to go.
Mickey Hatcher needs to go.
The Halos only spent $3m on signing their draft picks, but also failed to sign everyone they drafted. Given the state of affairs with the lack of talent in the farm, someone needs to be held accountable for the lack of results in not signing all picks. Not sure who that is….Abe Flores?
DFA (get them off the 40 man roster) Palmer, Ramirez, Rodney, Mathis, Branyan, Sandoval, Van Mil
Bench: Wells. The team will never get the value from the amount he’s being paid. Accept it. He’s a spot DH / OF / pinch hitter for the duration of his contract. If he doesn’t like it – he can retire.
DH: Abreu. He’s a liability with the glove. Love his OBP. Can’t cut him loose given the lack of talent on roster.
OF: Hunter, PBo, Trout from left to right.
Trumbo. Hope he can be trained to take a pitch. As for Kendrys, he is in AAA to play everyday. If he is 2009 Kendrys, we have a nice problem to figure out. If he can’t make it back – we move on.
Callaspo. Love the glove and consistency; but the team needs more offense (OBP and SLG) from the corner infield positions. If Trumbo stays, Callaspo needs to move.
Maicer: Like his play, but the team has too many utility players on roster and on the farm.
Aybar: His decision making will make everyone crazy at times, but he needs to be retained.
Kendrick: unless Segura is really ready, he stays…but remains one of the only viable trade chips on the team.
Bullpen: Keep Downs and Walden; Thompson and Hawk need to be scuttled. Both are too inconsistent; Thompson has been a project long enough. I’m starting to think he’s got a very good arm but a dime-store make up.
Starting Pitching: great front three. Let Piñata walk. The team needs to upgrade at #4, and let Chatwood and Richards fight it out for #5, with the loser going to long relief.
Catcher. Duh. Get Posada or another solid veteran to help develop Conger. Sorry Bobby, but here’s some lovely parting gifts.
by mustard_man on Aug 18, 2011 7:26 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Don't disagree with you there
I didn’t look at the high-level management stuff, but I don’t disagree with this at all.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
No money for Posada
We have a catcher as a manager. We don’t need to spend money on a guy who can’t hit or play defense anymore. Conger with Wilson backing up is just fine.
by tizzidy19 on Aug 18, 2011 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd blame Arte for only spending $3m in draft and not signing draftees.
That’s area to cut spending that doesn’t hurt PR-wise, though is quite dumb in regarding to building a team. VW pushed the team significantly over budget and my guess is that Arte is trying offset that loss in a quiet way that won’t give him that image of being cheap that motivated him to approve the big splash.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
Yeah, its a really stupid thing to do. That kind of stupidity completely screws this team for years to come
They see these kids in high school and draft them- posey, etc…- and then arent willing to spend the money to get them to sign. Either stop drafting them or start paying them.
Some one in the FO needs to wake these idiots up- they are going to college so they can be 1st round picks and get paid not because they “want and education.”
by Balls and Strikes on Aug 18, 2011 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
To be fair
No one knows what those late round guys really wanted. If they were looking to become multi-millionaires in order to be lured away from college, it seems wise to let them go. Besides, didn’t they sign their first 14 picks or so, anyways?
The kids were good enough to draft
…and their contract demands are largely known before the draft – then why not sign them given the lack of depth through the farm? For every Posey there’s 50 draft flame outs. However, just think – if the FO showed the money to Posey….we’d not be talking about Mr. Mathis.
Another thought….the FO is paying $80m to VW and getting nothing remotely close to the value of the expenditure.
Why not take the risk and pay the kids you thought highly enough to draft?
by mustard_man on Aug 18, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hear ya loud and clear
But it’s simply not how things are done. I would love to see the Halos be the progressive, rebellious team that pays way over slot for elite talent, but it ain’t gonna happen. They’re content to leave that kind of forward-thinking to the Rays and Jays.
I know things might've happened differently if he played on a different team
but god can you imagine scrambling to replace Mr. Morales AND Mr. Posey?
by Halowitz on Aug 18, 2011 2:53 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
No draft picks signed? WTF!! why isn't anyone talking about this?
The Halos only spent $3m on signing their draft picks, but also failed to sign everyone they drafted.
Vernon Wells / #10 / LAA / LF 2011-2014
2011 - $23M
2012 - $21M
2013 - $21M
2014 - $21M
Well....
The Halos signed 37 of 49 selections, but spent less than $3 million in the process.
More than half the “less than $3m” went to CJ Cron.
by mustard_man on Aug 18, 2011 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
I have a disease
And the only cure is more Cron.
I call if Cron’s Disease.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
by Kernel on Aug 18, 2011 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Looking forward to the Wrath of Cron jokes in the game threads.
by Halowitz on Aug 18, 2011 2:55 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I think the potential for images is great
Shatner yelling = awesome
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Um, I read in the paper that we signed our top 12 picks
Is that not true?
We did sign our first 12 picks
As mustard_man said, we signed 37 of our 49 picks.
"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter
Right
And as I understood it, the guys we did not sign were all late-round guys, so I don’t think it was the sort of massive failure implied by the comment. Nor is it clear from any of the comments that we signed an unusually low percentage of our draftees when compared to other MLB teams.
The point I was trying to make
was that restocking the fan through the draft is usually very inexpensive in comparison to singing overpriced free agents or trading for unmovable contract. I realize that the draft is a crap-shoot, but from a risk/reward perspective it’s usually the best option.
If the guys that weren’t signed really were all late rounders, then that’s all the more puzzling why the deals weren’t closed.
Not signing 12 picks out of 49 is not a rounding error. The farm system is thin, and this was a missed opportunity.
Some of them were guys in like the 15-20th round range, but they were high upside high school guys
That fell that far because of signability concerns.
"failed to sign everyone" is vastly different than "didn't sign anyone"
i think that could have been worded more clearly. Who expects to sign everyone anyway?
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Aug 18, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Meh...I guess so
“Failed to sign everyone” is different than “failed to sign anyone”
by mustard_man on Aug 18, 2011 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Hatcher will be here FOREVER
I take it you don't have the DOV Secret Decoder Ring
You need to drink more ovaltine
-Quad Fin Rider
by DAD OF VLAD on Aug 18, 2011 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Or until Scioscia is fired
See the thread below. Don’t understand why the post above doesn’t discuss this possibility.
Witty .sig goes here.
Absolutely NO to Posada.
I didn’t think anything could be worse than re-signing Mathis, but you found it. That guys is the embodiment of all that I hate.
Trust the Deception
by Rally Manatee on Aug 18, 2011 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree about getting Posada
Posada likely be much better than Conger offensively next season and considering his age, he won’t be much better defensively either. As for benching Wells, I really think hope Vernon will have an up year next season while I’m almost certain that Abreu will never again be what he was in 2009 or even a year ago. So Abreu’s got to be the one to go to make room for Trout.
Lastly, I completely agree with what you said about Callaspo and 3B. If Trumbo and Morales are in the same line-up (and assuming Morales can play 1B again) Trumbo has got to play 3B. He’s not going to give up nearly the runs on the field as he’ll create with the bat playing everyday and considering he was drafted as a pitcher (with a very good arm) as well as a 3B in high school, he’ll be just fine at 3B. Trumbo reminds me a lot of Troy Glaus and I think he would play 3B about how Troy did. I really don’t understand why people think this is a bad idea.
by TheAntiSox on Aug 18, 2011 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's never played 3B in minor league games.
I think it says something about how well he really played 3B in HS that the Angels never have played him there outside of workouts.
And when he played 3B in Winter Ball, it was disastrous.
I just don’t see any reason to think he could play the position.
Finally found something on it
And yes, it WAS two games in Winter Ball and yes it was disastrous. But honestly, he’s got the arm and skill for it. He probably just needs some experience (spring training?) and maybe needs to learn better placement.
Though, IMO, If the Angels want to avoid a disastrous offense the team has this year then they’re going have to put the more bats on the field than gloves. Honestly, an offense centered around Morales and Trumbo would do some serious damage.
That's something no one has really asked though, at least from what I've seen on HH.
I think it’s an interesting thought.
How many games did he play there in winter ball?
And did anyone see it, either live or on some illegal Dominican TV feed or something?
All I’ve ever seen are the quotes from one article where Trumbo says how bad that game was. But everyone has disastrous games, maybe not on that scale.
But it wasn’t exactly an environment conducive to success at a new position. He isn’t anywhere close to leadfooted, has pretty decent range over at 1st from watching him all season, and hasn’t looked horrific in the OF either.
I think it could be worth, at least a look during Spring Training, where the full ML coaching staff can work with him everyday. I don’t think it’s wise to completely write it off because of a report from Winter Ball in the Caribbean, when Trumbo had no confidence in being a ML-ready player, and no reputation to be treated as anything but a scrub down there.
I don’t see him as an answer, but it’s an idea that should be given more thought than, “He played there in Winter Ball, it was disastrous.”
"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen
Just stop with the Trumbo to third
It is recockulous
I'd like to DFA Reagins
by hauldog on Aug 19, 2011 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is still going on?
Look, wouldn’t the team have tried him there while Kendrys was still Kendry and they were kiddie pool-shallow at third base? Scioscia likes defense. If they thought there was any way possible Trumbo could handle the hot corner they would have worked with him there long before he ever hit the majors. For reference, see Mike’s quote about Trout being moved to catcher to see what he thinks about sacrificing defense for offense.
Sure, maybe if they work with him all spring, he could technically “play” third base, much in the way Quinlan used to “play” third base. But that has to be his absolute ceiling, right? His bat isn’t that good that it would make up for his likely awful glove at the hot corner.
Honestly, if they sign one of the big two first baseman this offseason (not terribly likely, but still) I would be just fine to see if they can capitalize on his surprising rookie campaign and trade him for a decent prospect or two.
by dmhead on Aug 23, 2011 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What needs to happen with this team is pretty obvious
Management decisions aside, this team is built around declining veterans and inexperienced rookies. They need a star to bring it all together. You can live with Torii’s numbers if he isn’t the guy you depend on in the lineup. They need to upgrade at 3B (options limited) to improve the offense. Since there isn’t a lot out there at the position, the other option is to upgrade at 1B, where there are options, and move Trumbo to DH, spot outfielder.
I think a good off-season signing might by Michael Cuddyer. You could probably get him and another big free agent. No other 3B options are really available outside signing Aaron Hill to a 1-year contract and hoping he returns to glory. If Aramis didn’t want to be traded to the Angels, doubt he would sign here.
There is going to be a lot of competition for Pujols and Fielder. Plus, I always worry about what Fielder is going to be like in 4 years. If Pujols would sign and we have the money, go for it. But it isn’t something we can depend on. St. Louis and other teams are going to make a major push in a market devoid of stars. I just hope we don’t overpay Berkman if we lose out on the Pujols bonanza.
This season looks like it's dying, what else is there to do but cling to those glimmers of hope that shine through for next year?
by Balls and Strikes on Aug 18, 2011 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I consider possibly having Albert Pujols on the Angels as a exploding ball of enormous hope.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
I do too. It would change the entire dynamic of this team.
I think it is pretty likely he stays in st. louis for less money. Fielder is a great option.
I deeply fear what we will see is tony screw this up by offering pujols a “fair” deal, with fielder as his fall back plan. Fielder signs somewhere quickly and pujols decides to stay in St. Louis. Off season misery 2 years in a row.
by Balls and Strikes on Aug 18, 2011 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
And as a knee jerk reaction he overpays Reyes who gives us absolutely nothing, Aybar produces a higher WAR over Reyes’ contract life with another team and we are left to wallow in the shit pile that is this backwards thinking front office.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
too bad the Rangers will get him
I think that move would put them WAAY over the top
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Aug 18, 2011 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Obvious or not,
Trading and eating part of Abreu’s salary will be a necessary evil for making this team better.
Arte is no stranger to flushing money down the toilet so this shouldn’t be a problem
RIP Nick Adenhart
I was going to make a post like this, so Ill just do this here
First, here is the “Free Agent List:”http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2001/04/potential-free-agents-for-2012.html
What stands out?
1B-
Albert Pujols
Prince Fielder
2B-
Jose Reyes
3B-
Aramis Ramirez
C-
Literally fucking anyone other than Mathis
OF-
Absolutely pointless to sign anyone here.
RP-
Heath Bell
Rafeal Betancourt
Matt Capps
Todd Coffey
Ryan Franklin
Ryan Madson
SP-
CJ WIlson
CC Sabathia (possibly)
1. First of all, Jose Reyes is a death trap. Any team retarded enough to spend the kind of money its going to take to get him deserves the punishment that is the Human DL Spot. The dude cant even stay healthy in his huge contract year. No thanks, pass the the fury of a million suns.
2. The Angels, Rangers and Cubs are the only major franchises with the money to sign Fielder and Pujols. If the front office does not sign one of these guys then it shows the absolute failure of the front office, its management, the philosophy of how money is spent, and the IQ level of Arte, TR and Sosh.
Both of these players represent the kind of bat needed to get the team to the next level. One absolutely needs to be signed no matter what the cost. Raise prices, make me pay 11 bucks a beer, I dont care. And before you trolls start going into “Fielder? MORE LIKE MO VAUGHN PART 2” you can shove it. If this team had “Mo Vaughn on the Angels” type production for the next 4-5 years then it could be enough to get them deep into the playoffs as he would still be the best offensive player on the team by far.
3. Aramis Ramirez is an upgrade, however, would be too expensive to acquire and is in decline. It would be a contract that would hinder the franchise too much to be worth its cost.
4. Getting one arm for the BP would be a good idea. The team has a glaring hole past Downs and Walden (although Walden himself could be viewed as a liability). Betancourt has proven to be a fantastic set up man and should be the team’s main target to improve the BP.
5. If Sabathia opts out he might command a contract as fat as his ass. The team simply cant afford him, period. They need to spend all the money they dont have because of Vernon Wells on offense. CJ Wilson could be had for a reasonable price although I would be shocked to see Texas no re-sign him.
6. As for the issue of the front office, we cannot expect Tony to be fired. I would not be shocked at all to see him stick around, making this franchise even worse over the long run by signing Reyes and A Ram to long term huge deals while offering Pujols 24 Dollars over 100 Years and being “furious and shocked” that he did not take it (publicly).
Personally I feel Sosh needs to just manage, Hatcher needs to go, TR needs to be cast off to irrelevancy (The NHL would work), and Sabermatrician Oriented Minds need to be worked into the system. The fact the MLB level hitting coach says that Walks are a fake stat and that the team values AVG and RISP over most stats is absolutely archaic thinking.
This team needs to get out of 1985, and now.
Albert Pujols for 2012 or bust
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
I would have been one of those Fielder? WTF are you thinking he is going to weigh 500 pounds in a few years people
but now, after watching arte burn 100 million on wells and his craptastic season, 4-5 years of what will likely be an above average (yet overweight) DH at the end of a 10 year deal seems like a great price to pay for awesome production for 4 or 5 years
by Balls and Strikes on Aug 18, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Realistically
You have to overpay in both years and dollars for 60% of the value of a free agent contract.
If you get Pujols or Fielder at 100% for 4 years its worth a 7 year contract.
This team’s window is shrinking dramatically, it needs a for real bat now.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
yep. I was always fine with the team passing on some free agents that were kind of exciting, but not the best
and arte would say “when the right player comes around, I’ll crack the piggy bank.”
I sure hope arte didnt crack it for wells and now it’s empty for these two players that actually have the ability to lift this team.
A serious threat like that in the lineup makes guys like hunter, trumbo, kendrick actual threats and the team could really contend.
by Balls and Strikes on Aug 18, 2011 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
I sincerely hope that they dont view Wells as that "right player"
Pujols is an answer long term, Prince is an answer at probably a shorter term but both represent the solution to this teams puzzling offense.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Your words are wise and true, alky bear
But you know this team is not going to fork over the case for Albert Pujols or Prince Fielder. They balked at $96 million for Beltre; no way they go north of $150 million for either of those guys.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions
*fork over the cash, even
It would probably be in a case, though.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Beltre alone would put this club in playoff contention
Since Arte has a mind for business there is no overlooking the fact that Pujols would bring significant revenue and attention to the team outside of his contract.
Fat Albert would not only instantly be the face of the team but would bring in millions in advertising, make us the favorites in the AL West for half a decade, and get us nightly attention on Sports Center.
Even if he fails to live up to his 7 Year 210 Million dollar contract (which he probably won’t live up to, damn drug testing) the significance if signing him makes the initial investment worth it. It has such far reaching implications and makes the organization look serious about winning.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
by PhiSlamma on Aug 18, 2011 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's what I'm counting on Arte expressing to his people
That these two 1B are exciting, marquee players that a fanbase can get behind while also providing that elusive stabilizing force in the middle of the lineup. It’s about more than paying for performance. It’s about paying for prestige.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Beltre?
Not sure Beltre would have solved our problems, since it would mean almost no playing time for Callaspo and less playing time for Kendrick too.
by Brody on Aug 18, 2011 3:42 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Have you seen Beltre's WAR, counting numbers, defensive stats etc etc etc?
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
As of today
Beltre has 3.8 WAR and Callaspo has 3.1 WAR. Also, as noted above, you have to account for the fact that Izzy’s at-bats all would come at Howie’s expense, and that could make this a wash for us. I suppose you are assuming that Texas loses 4 wins, but if they had not signed Beltre, they would have spent that money on someone else instead.
And Texas might not have needed to do anything else without Beltre.
They would have just put Young as their everyday 3rd baseman, and had more PA’s to split amongst Napoli and Moreland at 1B/DH.
"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen
Beltre benefits from TX's solid line-up.
I doubt he would be hitting as well for us since we have no one else in the line-up that is a threat.
Trust the Deception
by Rally Manatee on Aug 18, 2011 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Well said:
And before you trolls start going into "Fielder? MORE LIKE MO VAUGHN PART 2" you can shove it. If this team had "Mo Vaughn on the Angels" type production for the next 4-5 years then it could be enough to get them deep into the playoffs as he would still be the best offensive player on the team by far.
He’s two years younger than Vaughan when he reached free agency, which would likely put him around 35-36 years old at the end of a 7-8 year deal. I really don’t care how fat he is; he would not be paid to run the bases or shag fly balls. Go ahead and compare him to another tubby lefty from Boston. A post PED, 35 year old Ortiz still kills the ball and likely has another productive year or two in him.
Personally, given his age, health record and lefty power, I’d prefer Prince Fielder over Prince Albert. Of course Arte quivers in his boots at the thought of negotiating with Boras, so this is a total pipe dream.
The sad part is
if we did, we’d have the highest payroll in the majors and still wouldn’t have a top 10 offense.
I've been driving the Pujols Bandwagon since spring training, after his negotiations fell through.
Not sure it’s feasible, as it would take the FO spending money on a valuable player, but a man can dream.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Aug 18, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Since Arte has length-angst
It would take 30 million over 7 years plus other fluffers to get it done.
The thought of penciling in a guy with the silliest last name in the majors into my fake lineups gives me ten baseball boners.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Just sign him to a 4 year, 200 million dollar deal.
that way Arte can feel comfortable with the length AND burn money
"I too played shortstop for many years until I was struck down by Acne and Baby Fat" HST
by No Bologna Polonia on Aug 18, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
To be fair
I think the penchant for burning money is on TR and Sosh targeting overpaid, easy to acquire players based on stats that have little to no meaning when it comes to scoring runs.
Its HARD to outbid other teams blindly in the Free Agent Market.
Its EASY to get an overpaid aging outfielder who is about to balloon in cost for your best catcher and 4th OFer.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Where do you put trumbo and morales.
by Halos in DE on Aug 18, 2011 11:52 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Good question
Since there is absolutely room for Trout next year, lets assume he will be raking in AAA.
If the Angels acquire Fielder, then he is the full time DH with some playing time at first, Trumbo plays at first, spells some OF and DH. Morales is a non factor until proven otherwise. You cant take 2 months off of baseball and expect to hit effectively for quite a while, much less two years. Sorry, his baseball career is over.
Bourjos CF
Callaspo 3B
Fielder/Abreu DH
Hunter/Trumbo RF
Trumbo/Fielder 1B
Kendrick 2B
Wells/Abreu LF (sigh)
Aybar SS
Conger C
If the Angels acquire Pujols then he becomes the full time 1B. Trumbo has to be the DH, probably rotating with Abreu in the DH/Corner OF spots. Take the lineup above and put Pujols at 1B and Trumbo/Abreu at DH
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
This is the approach to take
If Morales comes back and makes eyes pop and jaws drop, GREAT. But at this point, it is not likely. Operating as if it were likely cost the Angels several games over the course of this season easy.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
So of course they'll assume Kendrys will be 100% healthy and in 2009 form again
Just like they did this year.
I can hear it now
“Having a healthy Morales is just as good as signing Fielder or Pujols. Besides, Arte has spent enough money we should be able to win with what we got”
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
It was a bad assumption
I’m not sure how much it cost us though. If Morales were healthy, we would have seen a lot less of Trumbo in the lineup. It is not as if he would have replaced Wells, which is what we would need to have our biggest improvement.
If we signed Fielder (and that is a huge IF)
I’m not sure that it would affect Trout’s playing time. Trout’s playing time depends primarily on whether the team considers him ready for the next level and whether the team gives up on Wells. The other factor is whether Morales is healthy, and if so, how he performs and at what frequency he can play. I would not expect the team to sign FIelder, however, unless they were almost sure that Morales was not going to return.
Pujols can play some 3B too.
If he was serviceable at 3B, it sure would be sweet to have Trumbo and 1B and Pujols at 3B. Then we could make Callaspo our top utility man.
Trust the Deception
by Rally Manatee on Aug 18, 2011 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Mickey Hatcher has no idea what he is doing.
First, he preaches his shitty “flail and bail as much as you want as long as you make contact” bullshit philosophy.
Then U-Haul joins the fray and he is impressed with his patience and approach at the plate, and he tries to get the other hitters to follow suit.
Then U-Haul gets dragged by his wife from the balls to Skankatopia and we sign Bobby Abreu so we can still have a patient hitter that others can benefit from watching his approach. At last, there is hope that Hatcher and the Angels maybe are starting to see the light.
And then the players and Hatcher say to themselves “meh”, and go back to their old, hacking ways and we are left with an aging Abreu whose excellent OBP means nothing anymore because it gets lost in the .315 OBP-land known as Los Angeles of Anaheim.
"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana
by Chzburger Jones on Aug 18, 2011 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Look at Hatcher's
Look at those walk totals, that career OBP and the years of less than 10 walks. One thing you can say is he preaches what he used to practice.
Getting on base with a high consistency is how offenses are run. No one in this organization gets that, and until that is fixed the offense will always be inconsistent and awful.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
"Then U-Haul gets dragged by his wife from the balls to Skankatopia"
His wife dragged him to a KISS concert?
Damn I posted this on the wrong thread - What do we do about the Infielders?
Maicer is signed through next year. I think all three Aybar, Kendrick, and Callaspo are eligible for arbitration next year (can someone verify this?) If Morales comes back, we have 6 infielders including Trumbo.
I don’t think we should offer arb to Callaspo. Play Trumbo at 3B, Aybar SS, Kendrick 2B, Morales 1B, and Maicer should be backup.
Does this make sense? I am horrible with baseball contract rules.
I don’t even want to talk about the OF and DH situation. Those contracts are too f’ed up to have any flexibility.
Vernon Wells / #10 / LAA / LF 2011-2014
2011 - $23M
2012 - $21M
2013 - $21M
2014 - $21M
You've been making some great contributions around here lately
Why ruin it by jumping on the Trumbo-to-third bandwagon? You realize his lack of errors this year is due to his two-step range, right?
If Morales makes it back, I can’t imagine he’d jump right back into the field. Either way, the team should move forward as if Kendry isn’t even on the roster and deal with it later if he’s actually healthy (and still productive) at some point. Trumbo should find his ab’s somewhere regardless.
Agreed
Beyond that, I’m warming to Callaspo. As long as he’s not killing us at 3B, he’s worth keeping around. Solid defense, solid offense (aside from the power outage he’s one of the Angels’ best at the plate this season), definitely above replacement level. His defensive WAR at B-R is 6th in the AL. He has walked more than he’s struck out. He’s certainly looking better than Sean O’Sullivan at this point.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
He needs to play everyday batting second
I am literally losing faith and respect in Sosh on a daily basis.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
thanks - i blame the slow economy
not much going on at work these days…
Vernon Wells / #10 / LAA / LF 2011-2014
2011 - $23M
2012 - $21M
2013 - $21M
2014 - $21M
We are NOT signing Pujols
I would bet almost anything on that. Pujols wants A-Rod money , which means 10 years for $300 million. Will he get that? No. But he very possibly will get 8 years for $200 million. Will we bid anywhere close to that? No freaking way.
The salary room is as much as Arte is willing to spend
Pujols is the game changer he has been waiting for.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Remember
Basically everyone except for Wells and our current rookies will be free agents after 2012. While the 2012 payroll would be very high, after that it gets more reasonable
"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter
This is what we said about this season
At some point, you have to balance the budget. Pujols is seeking an A-Rod-type contract of $300 million for 10 years. The Angels will not pay that. Some other team will. End of story.
You really need to project out the arb raises for everybody
and the going rate for the average players at each position we lose to FA (on the assumption that we do NOT re-sign our aging vets for above average extensions).
I know that I keep saying this over and over, but “money coming off the books” is a chimera.
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
we only do 4-year deals ...
and “if the player wants to be an Angel, he’s going to be an Angel”
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Aug 18, 2011 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
let's hope this doesn't happen in 2012
Boras: We want 7-year / $16M per year for Jered
Tony: No, the length isn’t right. Make it 5-years.
Boras: Jered really wants to be an Angel. He will take 6-year / $16M
Tony: No, f you Boras!
Tony: I introduce you Barry Zito. We traded Palmer and Howie.
Tony: Zito’s contract only runs through 2014 at $19M per year. What a deal!
Tony: Oh, did I mention that we got 2M chicken soft tacos as well?
Vernon Wells / #10 / LAA / LF 2011-2014
2011 - $23M
2012 - $21M
2013 - $21M
2014 - $21M
by dan73962 on Aug 18, 2011 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You never know
Back to back losing seasons and being the butt-end of every moronic-front-office joke in the media just might make Arte go “fuck it, give him what he wants.”
by dmhead on Aug 18, 2011 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That made my tip tingle
Trust the Deception
by Rally Manatee on Aug 18, 2011 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
On a somewhat related note, I had a Facebook update from this morning which lamented Tony Reagins and Sosh.
One of my friends, an A’s fan, chimed in and said “What are you griping about? Everyone knew this year was a rebuilding year for the Angels. This just proves most of you fans don’t know the whole story.”
I laughed pretty hard at that.
I WISH this had been a “rebuilding” year. If only we were so lucky.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Aug 18, 2011 11:25 AM PDT reply actions
People seem confuse what would be an expected down year with rebuilding.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
Wells trade
signalled they were “going for it” instead of “coasting thru the rebuilding process in a year we will make enough dough selling retro anniversary merch”.
by Rev Halofan on Aug 18, 2011 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Beltre would have given the same signal, at the same cost roughly at a better return
But hey, who needs an elite 3B?
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
3B actually isn't our problem
Because of Wells, left field is. So is catcher.
Power and the ability to drive in runs
is our problem. Beltre fills that need perfectly from a position that typically requires it and where we are currently not getting it. Callaspo would be a great fit if he were a MI but playing at him 3B is the problem.
Without Callaspo
We lose the guy with the second highest on-base percentage, thus resulting in even fewer opportunities for any power hitter to drive in runs.
Our outfield would be totally set for next year
If Reagins hadn’t made the Wells trade. Next year, we could have had a Bourjos/Hunter/Trout outfield, with Rivera on the bench as insurance – an extremely well-defending outfield that would be invaluable to our fly-ball pitching staff, and costing practically nothing (apart from Hunter). Now that we have Vernon Wells, we have a .200 hitting albatross in left who can’t even field his position. Now, the obvious thing to do would be to bench him. But he’s owed friggin 21 million a year….to do what? Hit .200 and play a crappy outfield? He’d be a 21 million dollar bench player – that would make the Angels the laughingstock of baseball. Hell, even the Mets would make fun of them (but they probably already are).
Nevertheless, if Vernon stinks during April next year, I agree that there will be no option but to bench him until he finds out how to hit. The best case scenario would be that Wells turns out 2010 with less power – .260 with 25 or so homers. Not worth 21 million, but playable. I still salivate at the thought that we could have had a young, cheap outfield next year with plenty of leftover money to spend on places we actually need.
Mark Trumbo: 2011 Rookie of the Year
Scioscia figures not at all -- why?
Scioscia chased Mike Napoli off this team (viz. the idiotic “bad hands” comment relayed by Napoli himself), eventually sending him to Toronto for a contract widely derided as the worst in baseball at the time. At the time!
Scioscia engaged Bobby Abreu’s 2012 option by playing him too much. Why?
Scioscia adheres to an offensive strategy that is provably false (RISP and RISP2 hitting as a repeatable skill).
Time for a change.
Witty .sig goes here.
by scareduck on Aug 18, 2011 12:00 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
I agree
his thinking has been mathematically proven to be ineffective and wrong. His player management is sub par at best, his rational behind the catcher position is destructive to the team, the bullpen management is awful, the inability to depart from a personal friend in Hatcher who brings his own MLB career of not walking and not hitting for power into lineups year after year is costing this team not only wins but prospects.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
by PhiSlamma on Aug 18, 2011 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
How has his player management and bullpen management been poor?
And remember, look at his entire career, one in which he has been very successful, especially at player and bullpen management.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Sosh has only one fundamental approach to bullpen management.
Starters into the 7th + long reliever(s) 7 & 8 + closer for 9th.
That approach works when he has highly effective relief pitchers to perform the roles that Sosh has pre-determined, AND they can be effective repeatedly (Shields + Percy or Shields + KRod). That is not management. That is fomulaic. And he got snookerd by Shields/Percy into believing he had hit on a permanent system.
Now, yes, IF he has the perfect pieces, the formula works. If he does not have the perfect pieces, the formula does not work. And even when the formula he uses does not work, he prefers not to change his formula.
I will give him credit this season for one change: if his top-end starters are doing fine with something less than astronomical pitch counts, he tends to leave them in. But this is “bullpen management” by subtraction. He is managing his bullpen by NOT using his bullpen.
However, I deduct way more credit than I do grant him, for the way he tries to stick to his formula and “manages” Downs back off the mound as soon as possible so that he can get back on track with his formula. He might actually have the most effective relief pitcher in all of MLB this year on his hands in Downs, but we will never know.
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
The idolization of mike scioscia needs to end.
Getting the credit for 2002, the celebration of 1000 wins… he has become a deity to some, completely infallible. its pretty remarkable. He’s turned into Mr. Kurtz from Heart of Darkness.
Sosh needs to be stripped from making personnel decisions and relegated to strictly managing what is on the field.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know one thing...my days of idolizing him are over. He's been seemingly trying his damndest this year to give the Halos the worst possible chance of winning each game.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Aug 18, 2011 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
He's a good manager
He’s been dealt a pretty bad hand this year, and played it even worse. His playing Mathis is egregiously bad, but would be cured by simply removing Mathis from the team.
He’s having a bad year, but just like you don’t write off a player who has one bad year in 10, you don’t write off a manager either. In my mind, he’s done enough to last another two years. If after two years we look back and think, “Yeah, he definitely lost it sometime in 2010 and hasn’t gotten it back,” then fire him.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
by Gorbachav5 on Aug 18, 2011 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
and to add to these points
Consider the old phrase: The devil you know is better than the devil you don’t. We know Scioscia’s negatives, how frustrating would it be to have a manager who did all the stupid things that Sciscia does NOT do? Hot-heads in the clubhouse, cliques forming, language barriers, let alone on the field game management – you sick of rigid roles, how about a wishy washy manager who plays spring training headgames with random committee assignments. Look at Bob Geren in Oakland four seasons into the job and no idea how to utilize a flukey LOOGY like Brian Fuentes.
For all of Sciosica’s negatives, especially those thrown into sharp relief with this season, he is still far an above the man I want managing this team.
Remember the smartest manager is the highest mental achiever out of a pool of some really really dumb jocks.
Excellent points.
My thoughts exactly. He does a lot of annoying things. However, for every bad decision he makes, he probably makes a ton of good decisions that we don’t even notice.
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Aug 18, 2011 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
There's another old saw that comes to mind for me
“Familiarity breeds contempt.” It’s the comment i see popping up in St. Louis with LaRussa. You already know what he will and won’t do, you know how much or how little these thigns will drive you nuts, and like an old married couple, those little tics and inexplicable actions drive you nuts.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Saying Sosh has been dealt a bad hand is minimizing his responsibility.
I never said he should be fired (at least, not seriously) but his role needs to be minimized in player acquisition.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I've been trumpeting this point for awhile
We DO NOT KNOW how big his role is in player acquisition/movement. I would agree that he has more input than most managers. But if you told me “Napoli/Rivera for Wells was all Scioscia” then I would ask you to point me toward some evidence of that.
As to your larger point, I agree that his role in personnel decisions should probably be similar to other managers. If Scioscia IS responsible for having this bad hand, then I blame Reagins and Moreno for giving him responsibilities that he shouldn’t have.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Did you miss Turk's Teeth's bomb in the other thread?
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good stuff there
It’s still hard to quantify, but clearly Scioscia has the power.
He probably shouldn’t.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Turks Teeth cited about 5 sources that Mike has incredible pull in regards to FO decisions.
As far a specifics… who knows.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
You've read Heart of Darkness
never took you as a readin’ man, Clover.
My apologies.
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Aug 18, 2011 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
No worries.
My butler actually types what I have to say, on the message forum… I’m not much of a typin’ man.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I had, coincidentally, loaded up on a ton of quotes from Heart Of Darkness last night
in response to Rev’s FanShot quoting Nietzche. I chose to play a mind game with you all, using von Schiller, instead.
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
Scareduck has been on the Fire Scioscia bandwagon for a few years now
Take what he says with a grain of salt.
You overstate my position
It’s really just been this year that I think he’s engaged in what I consider fireable offenses. Napoli/Wells by itself is a disaster. And yes, I put that on his shoulders.
Witty .sig goes here.
I appreciate people contributing to this hardcore Angels fan community we got goin' on, but this sort of post just makes me grumpy.
The shit that needs to be done is not going to be done. The FO/Sosh have made that clear already.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Aug 18, 2011 12:04 PM PDT reply actions
In which case
my season tickets will not be renewed. If the Angels aren’t willing to publicly apologize for their idiotic behavior, they don’t deserve my patronage.
Witty .sig goes here.
I will end an email letting them know that if they fail to either fire Tony Reagins or sign one of the two 1B on the market I will not be attending any games for at least a year.
And will stream any game I watch.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
I'm not a season ticket holder
but I typically make it to 5-8 games a season. This year? One. Not out of any sort of protest, but this current roster construction has given me no motivation to go watch this team in person.
Hopefully other Angels fans wise up and do the same.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Aug 18, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
the point of a forum is to discuss these things
when there is a roadblock to progress, welcome to the forum discussing the roadblock instead of progress.
I can dig it. I'm just saying that, like being in the worlds worst traffic jam ever, I can either pull off the highway and get a hotel room; wait for traffic to clear up. Or I can succumb to road rage the likes this world has never seen before.
Basically, I’m just going to learn to avoid anything pertaining to Jeff Mathis and/or Vernon Wells and/or Tony Reagins.
All things Angels aside from those still put a smile on my face, rather than a look of unneeded exasperation.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Aug 18, 2011 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Regarding hiring Kim Ng
As competent as she may be, I would respectfully submit that the same dynamic that makes Tony Reagins a loose cannon would also be at play with her, namely, neither have played the game. I get a strong sense with the Angels that Reagins is merely a signature to rubber-stamp decisions already made by the field manager.
Witty .sig goes here.
?
Why do you believe that in the modern game of acquiring roster talent in MLB, having a legacy of playing on the field is the critical factor?
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
I guess what it comes down to
is that Stoneman hired Scioscia, and you never got the impression with Scioscia that he was telling Stoneman who to hire.
I don’t get that with Reagins. Ng would be up against it twice as hard: a woman, AND never played the game. Strike two.
Witty .sig goes here.
Ah. Now I get your point.
It is not that being a player brings something intrinsic to the actual task of assembling a roster. It’s that also being an ex-player robs Scioscia of a prime factor for intimidation when arguing with his GM about how a roster shall be assembled.
In short, if the GM is also an ex-player, he can call bullshit on Sosh.
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
The only way out of the OF mess
is to trade Bourjos…not even sure what he’d be worth on the open market but probably not a whole lot…I would package him with Howie and see what you can get…the Wells deal essentially blocks Trout unless Scioscia plans on making Vernon the primary DH next season (which may hot be the worst idea actually) but Bourjos and Howie are two of the few valuable trade pieces this franchise has and it may be the key to a quicker remake of this extremely stale roster.
You realize who will be in charge of trading Bourjos and Kendrick...
… right?
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Yah I do...
which means someone will fleece Reagins for a coupe of busted up bullpen arms in all probability…
Xactly.
So… DFA Wells.
Reagins needs to take a huge dump on a pile of cash, and Arte needs to eat it. Chomp chomp chomp.
Bring up Trout.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
although pissed off about the deal, I haven't been too harsh on VW this season
but if they trade PB because of the crowded OF my hatred for him will fucking explode
"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN
by 2pintsofbooze on Aug 18, 2011 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your hatred won't bother him though
Too blessed to be stressed about angry fans.
Disagree
The way out of the OF mess is to hold on to Wells for a couple months next year. If he actually starts hitting, yay. If not, buh bye, hello Mike Trout.
And as clover_black says, you ARE assuming the Angels can trust the man at the desk making these trades. Typical dialogue.
Witty .sig goes here.
by scareduck on Aug 18, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You dont release Wells
He becomes a valuable pinch hitter off the bench, not DFA meat. Yes he would be the most expensive pinch hitter in history but he still has some value off the bench.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
If you bring vern off the bench ...
do you think he will try harder then he does now? While now he is one of the regular starters.
What makes you confident that Wells would do at least as good as he does now,
by reducing his AB’s to 1 per week? And don’t you think that he has to do AT LEAST what he does now (if not significantly BETTER) in order to be considered a worthy pinch-hitter?
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
No I don't trust Reagins
but Trout obvously needs to play on the big league level next year and maybe could be the left fielder with Bourjos in CF…Howie and his 37 RBI need to be shipped out however,,,
by Dr. Halo on Aug 18, 2011 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
RBI Baseball
Pretty sweet game.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I loved hitting homeruns that went through the fence.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
by Gorbachav5 on Aug 18, 2011 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What do you have against reviving baseball in the inner-city?
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
For what?
Its not possible to get equal value for him at this point as it would take a 3B of high quality to be worth the cost. There simply is just nothing on the market to justify trading him.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
He is far above average at 2B
And relatively cheap and young. He doesn’t suck. Unlike our left fielder and catcher, and frequently our DH.
by Brody on Aug 18, 2011 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So the best we can say about him
is that he doesn’t cost a whole lot? You can say the same about Callaspo and get about equal production at second from him…Howie has not become the player we all thought he would be…some people don’t like use RBI as a measuring stick but 37??
by Dr. Halo on Aug 18, 2011 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, the best we can say about him is that he's 4th in baseball in WAR among second basemen
So, I’m not sure what it is about him that you don’t like. He’s been great this year.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
by Gorbachav5 on Aug 18, 2011 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
And I like Callaspo
There is no problem with Howie or Callaspo. The problem is that they should not be two of the three best hitters on the team. If we had a middle of the order to build around them, we would not be having this conversation.
Very true
and if this was at all a major league lineup we wouldn’t even be cringing at Mathis as much as we all do but it’s not that I don’t like Howie, it’s just that I think he might be worth something in the right deal on the open market and, in my opinion, not as head and shoulders above some other players we have that could do the same job…if they keep Howie I’m OK with it but at the same time I am realizing that he’s a .290 hitter with minimal power and better suited to hitting second or seventh depending on the rest of the lineup behind him…he’s not the second coming of Garret Anderson which is what I was kind of expecting from him.
What's funny is that Howie will probably put up more WAR this season than GA did in any season
And Howie, despite his injuries and despite his not living up to the hype, is, in 6 years, over halfway to GA’s career WAR.
Anyway, WAR isn’t the end-all, and I love GA. I just think Howie is a victim of hype. He’s a solid player whose main flaw has been his inability to stay on the field. He’s a good defender, a good baserunner, and a 10-HR a year line drive hitter. If we can get value for him in a trade, especially if we believe in Segura, then of course the Angels should pursue it. But he’s definitely an asset to the team.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Who is Howie's replacement
that he gets this high number compared to? My point is that Callaspo would be a solid second baseman as well and maybe Segura might be ready if he can get healthy and Howie might bring a good piece back in return.
by Dr. Halo on Aug 18, 2011 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
your point has one fallacy
that the GM who traded Napoli for Wells could improve the team with the trade chip of Kendrick.
I'm not taking that for granted whatsoever
but what else does this team have to work with to remake this pathetic roster??? and besides we all know who really pulls the strings on roster decisions…
Speaking of favorites
Mathis being Scioscia’s favorite catcher completely undermines everything about this team trying to win games…I’m just throwing out there maybe Howie, Aybar and Bourjos to Florida for Hanley Ramirez might not be a bad place to start in the rebuilding process.
Replacement level is based on your run-of-the-mill scrub available from AAA
If we replace him with Callaspo, who do we replace Callaspo with? If we replace him with Segura RIGHT NOW, do you really think Segura will put up good numbers?
Howie is a good player. Anybody they have to replace him (or Callaspo) from within the system will be much, much worse, unless there’s a diamond in the rough I’m not aware of.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
So you don't want to compete until 2015?
We can make changes that will allow us to compete next season. Let’s not get rid of what is good, let’s fix what is bad
"Its like when i’m right…i’m right… and when i’m wrong…i could have been right..so i’m still right cause i could have been wrong"-Chevy Clarke's Twitter
You're out of your element, Donnie.
by Halowitz on Aug 18, 2011 3:43 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Kernel, this is an awesome post
It’s nice to hear an Angel fan with some sense of reason and realism instead of “get rid of the entire team and coaching staff and ownership cuz they suck!!!11”. Well written.
by Howie is my Hero on Aug 18, 2011 12:33 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Where is the money going to come from?
We are already way over budget. How can we afford to take on the biggest contracts of the off-season without shedding existing deals? It’s just not going to happen.
Realistically here is what I can see happening:
- Dump Tony and everyone who went along with the Wells deal.
- Drop Mathis. Conger/Wilson are fine.
- Trumbo/Morales duke it out for 1B/DH
- Trade Abreu. Probably will have to eat $5m but it clears a roster spot and saves us $4m.
- Let Wells play until the team is confident that Trout is ready to start as a regular in the bigs. Maybe that’s opening day 2012 – maybe it’s later. Point is you don’t make a knee jerk reaction on Trout.
- No major FA signings. The team is broke. Spending more won’t help. 2012 is a wasted year from a wins/loss perspective (expect nothing better than 80 wins). However, 2012 is critical to determine the direction of the team. Just look at who is potentially walking after the 2012 season:
-→ Hunter
-→ Haren (option)
-→ Weaver
-→ Abreu
-→ Santana (option)
-→ Takahashi
-→ Kendrick
-→ Izturis
-→ Aybar
2012 is going to shape the direction the team wants to go in the future. There are so many players that could be resigned or let go. I would wait to make any major FA moves until after the 2012 season. I can see a scenario where EVERYONE is let go/traded and the team goes all in for a rebuild. Alternatively, Kendrick/Aybar, etc could take big steps forward – enough where you want to make a large commitment to them. In that scenario you would lock up the core and focus on filling in the gaps via FA.
Signing Pujols/Fielder/Reyes would be a very bad move IMO.
by bjsguess on Aug 18, 2011 12:39 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
a voice of reason emerges....
you cannot eat wells and have money for either pujols or fielder. arte is not going to pay wells to ph or sit on his butt. the real problem is where is the 2012 FA money coming from. we could lose our entire effective pitching starters, unless some serious money is spent and losing them will set us back 5-7 years. the fan solution is certainly not to boycott next year because then artie goes into hunker-down save money mode and does nothing to sign our starting rotation.
every point you make should be followed. you’re hired.
...on the road....
by Jack Kerouac on Aug 18, 2011 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just curious..
but is Arte paying Wells to to get on-base at a 230 clip?
Just a fluke, I’m sure. He should turn it around to his .299 OBP away-split by 2012, since, we all know baseball players get better with age.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
of course arte is not wanting wells' obp to be .230, but he is in fact paying for it....
….the point being, he has to continue paying for it whether it climbs to .300 or falls to .025, a contract is a contract. arte simply cannot keep paying wells contract and receive virtually nothing in return (or for that matter receive something of value) and have pujols or fielder money, especially in light of what he has to shell out to keep weaver, haren, and santana after next year.
...on the road....
by Jack Kerouac on Aug 18, 2011 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Arte can spend what he wants
And a good team on the field will get more fans in the seats. You put either one of the aforementioned 1B on this team and you’ve just added a star player that everyone knows and wants to see play.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
I agree either pujols or fielder would be great additions and also that arte can spend what he wants....
…but that is not realistic. arte is a businessman, not a drunken sailor. see the very well written post by Brody below setting out the dollar figures, there is no room to round out the roster and add $20 mill plus per year for a long term contract, especially considering the additional money that must be spent after next year to keep our three starting pitcher aces.
...on the road....
by Jack Kerouac on Aug 18, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
This is why you are wrong
No one is going to want to get season tickets to see this team. Revenue across the board is going to start dipping as there is more to do in SoCal than watch a bad product rife with problems.
You add one superstar and you have a marketing explosion. The revenue a Pujols brings in offsets his contract in the short term. Adding nothing means you get less money to pay off Wells.
Its obvious you are not in business.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
by PhiSlamma on Aug 18, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is where you're wrong.
You can get revenue to pour in by doing the free snuggie/world record gimic every night.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
See the San Diego Padres
For what the Angels’ future looks like if they put up one or two more non-playoff seasons in a row.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
where am i wrong? in saying pujols or fielder would be great additions? in saying arte can spend what he wants?
you must mean i’m wrong in saying arte is a businessman and not a drunken sailor. don’t the angels run on a budget? hasn’t the team stayed out of the free agent market because of not being willing to pay the going rate? what can you point to as supporting your theory that arte will suddenly start going on wild spending sprees? i addressed decreasing revenues in an upthread post and how that will impact arte’s future spending habits. you sir are the one who is wrong. i am in business, a successful business that i own, that’s why i can look at arte’s spending history and state that will he can spend any amount he wants, he will not do so.
...on the road....
by Jack Kerouac on Aug 18, 2011 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Let me finish lunch and we shall internet fence my wily friend.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Wells can be cut and replaced by Trout
We are already spending over $60 million on that roster spot and getting nothing for it. If adding Trout’s league minimum salary to it would turn LF from a negative WAR position, which it currently is, into one that could generate 3 WAR or more, then I say do it.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't cut Wells before the season
Let him compete for a job in spring training and keep him on a very short leash. If Trout wins the job, so be it, but we could still use Wells to platoon with Bobby against lefties. Of, if Kendrys is recovered and able to be the full-time DH, we still could use Wells as a late-inning pinch hitter against lefties. No sense cutting him when that last roster spot often is taken up by a player like Andrew Romine.
i'm all for dumping the wells contract and putting trout in his spot...
… but to whom do you dump wells on? we can always try the old standby hendry of the cubs, but he may be fired before then. i’d be all for trading wells somewhere and eating some of his contract, but wells is so horrible we’d have to eat almost the entire amount and you’re back to square one. you’re correct that arte can eat his contract, but do you really think he doesn’t compensate by holding the player salary total down?
...on the road....
by Jack Kerouac on Aug 18, 2011 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
You cant get anyone to pick up the contract
You would have to DFA him, which is a waste of a bench bat. I say keep him.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
I'm not talking about moving him; I'm talking about DFAing him
If he comes into next spring looking just as bad as he has this year, then cut our losses and move on. I think even Arte would be fine paying him the rest of his contract to sit on his couch or whatever if it kept him from dragging the Angels down with him.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Does anyone remember Apier
Didn’t Moreno just DFA that guy after a World Series Season the year before. Wasn’t he one of our highest paid pitchers at the time?
I’m just saying.
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at First2Third.net
Arte didn't own the angels in 2003.
If the Halos don't care about the way they play, then why should I?
You, good sir, are INCORRECT!
Timeline:
May 15, 2003: Arte Moreno Buys the Angels
July 30, 2003: Appier DFA’s by Angels
That was an $11.5M contract Ape was in the middle of.
I love this team.
by Downing Rules on Aug 19, 2011 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Dammit! Don't confuse me with facts!!! How many baseball games have you seen live?
If it’s less than 4000, I don’t care what you say!!!! <grin>
If the Halos don't care about the way they play, then why should I?
Let me explain...
You purchase a poop sandwich, but you don’t realize it is a poop sandwich.
You take a bite… Poop!
Do you:
A) Continue eating poop sandwich (because you paid for it)
B) Try and trade coworker his lunch, for your poop sandwich
C) Throw poop sandwich in the trash
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
C and call the Health Department
Which I guess would be replacing Reagins in this analogy?
yours is not really the question....
…the question is, you have spent a major part of your lunch money for a (and let’s just say it) shit sandwich. doesn’t matter if you choose A) or C), you don’t have enough money left for a pujols/fielder sandwich. UNLESS you decide, for the first time, to completely blow your lunch budget to smitherreens. all the evidence we have from past performance is that arte will not blow his lunch budget. that is why it is unrealistic to think he spends what it takes to get either pujols or fielder (although i really wish he’d go crazy and have a yankee budget). he has to be looking out a year from now when he knows it will take more money to keep weaver, heren, and santana. ther’s just not enough money to do all of this.
...on the road....
by Jack Kerouac on Aug 18, 2011 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
What's this is see... in the back of the fridge...
its a trout sandwich.
Seriously though, if Pujols and Fielder are not options with or without Wells, might as well make the best out of a horrible situation.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is most certainly not trout
It might be some kind of jackfish.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Haren and Santana are different than Weaver
Santana will be paid 11.2 million next year. The Angels have a $13 million option for 2013 (or a $1 million buyout) so the cost of Santana in 2013 is only slightly higher than it is for 2012. There’s also no long term commitment to worry about. If he’s pitching relatively well, the option should be picked up.
Haren has a similar story. He will get paid 12.75 million next year (as he is this year). In 2013, he has an option for a $15 million salary or a $3.5 million buyout. Again, it’s a little more money, but it’s only for one year and if he pitches as he has as an Angel, will be worth it (at least in terms of the going rate for premium starting pitchers).
Weaver is a much different story. He will be a free agent after next year and will likely cost in excess of $20 million per season.
I personally would expect to see both Santana and Haren in 2013 (barring injury or major collapse), but not Weaver. I would love to see Weaver too, but am not getting my hopes up.
The only consolation is the team is pretty solid for the most part.
Our core nucleus is good enough already, and some are still improving. Decent position players everywhere with the exception of two incomprehensible black voids (guess who). Starting pitching is stellar; grabbing a back of the rotation arm should be an easy fix. Chatwood is only what, 21? He’s already putting up numbers adequate for his rotation spot and is still learning.
Despite what people say about Callaspo, hes a decent player and upgrading 3B is not a concern when you consider how terrible a few other spots are… and this pains me to say, because we have highly regarded prospects at those “spots”.
C, LF and RP need upgrades stat. That’s really what we need to be contending right now. I’m not ready to give up on Wells, and while he is awful this season, I’m holding out hope that it is a fluke season and by next he’ll be around .250. If not, we have a nice little in house option to test drive. Mathis, lol. I can’t imagine Conger doing worse, I don’t think its even possible. And for RP, I’m pretty happy with our two acquisitions; signing an arm or two even if we get another Hawk is fine, if in the process we get another Downs. Hell, even Hawk has been okay when he hasn’t been asked to stop rallies.
by ConcernedParent on Aug 18, 2011 12:45 PM PDT reply actions
Fuck this Front Office right in the ear.
And Mike too damn it.
I can’t take it anymore. I love this team too much to watch this line up trotted out each night.
I think Mike’s smart ass answer about having Trout catch when asked why he continues to let Mathis start was the last straw for me. Sigh.
Official prediction: The Angels will win the AL west this season.
by RexTookMyStash on Aug 18, 2011 12:45 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
it was pathetic
in its utter hubris
by Rev Halofan on Aug 18, 2011 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
I'm as big of a Scioscia booster as anyone,
but now I just feel stupid defending him. I feel like he’s making a joke of a roster and team that I devote a lot of my life and time to. I don’t know what to say anymore.
Official prediction: The Angels will win the AL west this season.
by RexTookMyStash on Aug 18, 2011 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions
i just cant believe how stubborn and hard headed he is!!
and the angels are hurting because of it.
conger > mathis
Yeah, it's beyond comical at this point, to the point of just being strange and uncomfortable.
Official prediction: The Angels will win the AL west this season.
by RexTookMyStash on Aug 18, 2011 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions
The Mathis-Soth-Rodney-et. al, situation is turning the team and FO into a laughting stock.
Not a fun place to be.
Official prediction: The Angels will win the AL west this season.
by RexTookMyStash on Aug 18, 2011 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think the comment was that bad
I am sure he regrets saying it because it can be construed as a put-down of Conger. But it is obvious that he was going to give a snide response because Saxon goaded him into giving that type of response. Asking someone “How could you not try his bat after what you’ve gotten from your other catchers?” may seem like a reasonable question to everyone who hates Mathis, but it was unprofessional and the equivalent of asking “Why are you such a f***ng moron?” Scioscia did not take the question seriously and gave a snide response, which is exactly what Saxon anticipated. Scioscia should have maintained more self-restraint and given his typical defense-first response.
X
Official prediction: The Angels will win the AL west this season.
by RexTookMyStash on Aug 18, 2011 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
What I mean to say here
Is that while I disagree with and do not condone the comment, I understand it. The heading of the previous comment should say that I don’t think it was that bad in context. Saxon should have done his job like a professional.
Are you f'ing kidding?
It’s the reporter’s fault? He asks a question that has been the elephant in the room for the past couple of years and actually did ask it in a respectful way. He could have pointed out that Mathis is the worst player in the history of baseball compared to all other players with the same number of plate appearances.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
by snowhor on Aug 18, 2011 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, I'm not kidding
He did not do it in a professional or respectful way. The way you might ask a question of me on this blog is not the same way that a credentialed sports reporter is expected to ask a question of the manager of a major league baseball team. The proper question would have been to ask why Conger is not starting, and as a follow-up, at what point the advantages of his bat outweigh any perceived disadvantages to his defense.
Insulting the person you are interviewing is not appropriate. Nor is it likely to get you a serious answer to your question.
"How could you not try his bat after what you’ve gotten from your other catchers?" is just about the nicest way possible to ask what the F the worst player in baseball is still doing in the lineup.
We already know Mike’s answer to your question (“The proper question would have been to ask why Conger is not starting, and as a follow-up, at what point the advantages of his bat outweigh any perceived disadvantages to his defense.”). His would be “Mathis’ defense is too important.”
He’s not asking why isn’t Conger playing, he’s asking why is Conger displaced by catchers providing zero offensive input.
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
by snowhor on Aug 18, 2011 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think Saxon was tired of having smoke blown up his ass
Just like the rest of us. Mike’s response just proved that his obsession with Mathis has no rational defense.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
"Better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
2012
Before we think about who we can sign, we should look at who will be back and what they will cost.
The following players almost certainly will return to the team. I have listed their actual salary or, where the player is eligible for arbitration, a projected salary based on a 150% increase from this season (reports online show that the range generally is between 120% and 170%). So, in order of descending cost, we can expect to see:
Vernon Wells, $21 million
Torii Hunter, $18 million
Dan Haren, $12.75 million
Ervin Santana, $11.2 million
Jered Weaver, $11.1 million (projected)
Bobby Abreu, $9 million
Scott Downs, $5 million
Howie Kendrick, $5 million (projected)
Erick Aybar, $4.5 million (projected)
Kendrys Morales, $4.5 million (projected)
Hisanori Takahashi, $4.2 million
Maicer Izturis, $3.8 million
Alberto Callaspo, $3 million
Peter Bourjos, $418,000
Tyler Chatwood, $418,000
Mark Trumbo, $418,000
Jordan Walden, $418,000
Bobby Wilson, $418,000
Hank Conger, $418,000
This list includes 19 players — 4 starting pitchers, 3 relief pitchers, 4 outfielders, 2 first basemen, 2 catchers, 1 second baseman, 1 shortstop, 1 third baseman, and 1 utility player — at an approximate cost of $115.6 million.
This leaves another 6 roster spots. Of these 6 spots, 1 will go to the fifth starting pitcher and 3 or 4 will go to relief pitchers. If Mike Trout makes the 25-man roster, that leaves no more than 1 remaining spot.
In order to round out the roster, we can assume that the team will have a budget around $130 million — and, in any case, not more than $140 million. That means that the team will have somewhere in the range of $15 million to $25 million to spend on 6 players. Considering this financial situation and the team’s general approach to free agency, it is extraordinarily unlikely, in my opinion, that the team will spend $25 million to $30 million per year for 7 or more years on one player, such as Albert Pujols.
So where does that leave us? We can hope that the team realizes its mistake with Jeff Mathis and non-tenders him. That will avoid the burden of carrying three catchers, open up a spot for another position player, and save the team approximately $2 million.
The next issue is starting pitching, specifically whether the fifth starter will be Garrett Richards, Trevor Bell, or Jerome Williams, or whether it will be a free agent. Personally, I am rooting for Richards, at a price of $418,000. If we sign a free agent, however, we can expect to spend somewhere in the range of $5 million to $8 million, which would be approximately one-third to one-half of our budget.
Then there is the bullpen. One question is whether Walden remains the closer. I hope that he does. If he does not, a closer likely will cost at least $8 million to $12 million, which would be a huge percentage of our budget. Even if Walden remains the closer, however, the team also may consider signing someone to pitch in the late innings along with Walden, Downs, and Takahashi. This likely would cost at least $4 million. The other options are Bobby Cassevah, Rich Thompson, Williams, Bell, Kevin Jepsen, and Michael Kohn, all of whom will cost the minimum.
In the end, unless we drop Morales (and Mathis) and use a 6-man (rather than 7-man) bullpen, we can only add 1 position player to take the place of Russell Branyan. So I would not expect any radical changes.
by Brody on Aug 18, 2011 1:06 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't know that I expect these changes to happen
I just think they’re a good way to get the team back into better shape while also providing a more compelling on the field product.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Perhaps he won't
I used averages because some (like Kendrys) may come out lower, but others like (Jered and Howie) very well may come out higher.
My eyes have opened up to the glory of the Lord...
God needed a starter. RIP #34
by 3rd Echelon on Aug 18, 2011 1:30 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Sign Pujols play him at 3rd play Trumbo at 1st let KMO DH platoon Abreu and Wells
Don’t know, don’t care. People that criticize can kiss my ass. I don’t give a shit
-Kobe Bryant
You want to make history you have to do historic things- Kobe Bryant
For as much money as you would have to pay Pujols you cant put him at a position he barely plays
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Albert Pujols has only played 103 games at third in 11 seasons.
In addition, seven of those 103 games at third have been played in a span of 9 seasons. A Pujols move to third base seems unlikely.
we will not get a FA haul anytime soon
until this front office is cleared out. the word is out that TR is a novice and (like doc brown did to the Libyans) has assembled our killer weapon (our Angels baseball team) with a bunch of used pinball machine parts.
as i said before, a FA looks at our lineup around him and says “wtf?” and then he talks to Reagins. nothing will happen until the house is cleaned out.
I love the idea of signing Pujols BUT
let’s be real. They wouldn’t pay for Crawford, nor for Teixera, etc. And then with A) Weaver’s contract coming up AND B) $86M ‘invested’ in Wells, well that pretty much puts the kibosh on going after Pujols. Even if it weren’t the case as regards Wells and Weaver, I’d say it would be highly unlikely, but between the next Weaver contract and three remaining on VW, you’re talking $200M. So given that Arte never has been and never will be like the Yankees, I think as someone said above….. it’s a dream.
obviously you are correct, but as i'm being repeatedly told up thread, arte can spend what he wants....
…there’s just no evidence based on past conduct that he would ever do that
...on the road....
by Jack Kerouac on Aug 18, 2011 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Differnece between
Arte CAN and ARTE will.
If I empty my bank account I can get a few nights in a suite at the Bellagio. I can also get three nights at the El Cortez for under $150.
Arte is like that too.
No Bellagio for Arte.
by Rev Halofan on Aug 18, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Arte
Arte is all about money. This guy loves a fat wallet and wants it fatter. He doesnt give a daam about winning or losing. First thing he did when he bought the team was throw L.A in it. For what reason? Marketing. Marketing is more money in Artes eyes. Then the stunts he pulls that puts money in his pocket, like The Sea Of Red night when Guiness Records was there. 5 minutes of Fleece blankets being worn by 40,000 plus fans. That got people to buy tickets to be part of something stupid.The the sale of outfield grass. For $25 you could buy a 3 inch square of outfield grass. Theres so much more to talk about, but not enough time. I think Hugh Hefner should buy The Angels. He can start by getting rid of the L.A and bring back California Angels
I'm with you
The sad reality is that whoever makes the decisions for this team — Arte Moreno, Tony Reagins, or Mike Scioscia — believed that trading for Vernon Wells would push the team over the top in the AL West in 2011. That plan failed. If we had not traded for Wells, we actually could sign Pujols or Fielder next season with the $10 million to 15 million in available space, plus the $21 million that we have committed to Wells. Oh well.
What if we renegotiate the Wells contract
and pay the 86 million over the next ten years, with some interest?
Wells seems like the type of guy to do it, you can bring him on as a FO goon after his playing days for community work and such.
That saves you 15ish million a year annually to go after the big boys this winter. This free agent crop is just too good to pass up, this is the winter you get your bat. (and keep it away from texas)
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
Player's Union
would not allow this as the unpredictability of inflationary trends could mean that the final payments in ten years are substantially worth less (even though they are the smae amount of money) at the end of a decade then they are now.
Its not unprecedented
Marquis Grissom is sitll being paid by the Dodgers, Ichiro has the same structure (although it was in the work from the start of it and not a reneg), Bobby Bonilla is still being paid by the Mets because the Mets did the exact thing Im talking about.
Its not like it hasnt happened before and the players union approved each time.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
none of those
were the can of worms this would be. Union is not going to shoot themselves in the foot by making all terrible contracts renegotiable down against inflation.
this HAS been done, though.
Bonilla and Grissom did such.
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Aug 18, 2011 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Mets did this
They are still paying Bobby Bonilla and a bunch of other guys who have not played for them in forever. The interest that they agreed to is insane. I would not advocate taking the same approach.
Thats because they did it wrong
You give Wells an actual spot in the front office after his playing contract, link it to a salary, and the interest would be in the area of 6 million or so if you do it right. Paying him 90 million over 10 years is a hell of a lot better than 86 over 4.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
BTW Im getting these numbers out of my ass
But I think, based on not only Bonilla/Grissoms deal but with Kerry Wood’s recent deal that has him transitioning to the front office after his playing days are over with his salary being linked to that.
The structure and precedent is in place, you just have to be creative.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
We owe $63M over 3 years
Not sure what that would come to over 10 years. I know that when I take out a loan over 30 years, the amount that I owe is double what I am taking out. So I think it might cost more than $6 million to defer his payments by 7-10 years.
no, not a good idea
better to pay 1million each year for the next 86 years.
not by tony's standards,
its far better to pay 86 million for 1 year
by Balls and Strikes on Aug 19, 2011 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Bottom line
This team needs two things very dearly in order to compete next season: A starting pitcher and a power bat.
Who they acquire to meet these needs remains to be seen. After last season, I’m somewhat reluctant to find out.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
I think we need another GM
also…………………………………….
I think we need another GM
They don't need another SP.
It’s the offense that needs big help. Having a 1B that can’t get on base and a 3B that can’t hit for power – and Torii as the cleanup hitter – is the root of the problem.
(Oh, and Wells sucking.)
I am not confident in relying on Chatwood and Richards as #4 and #5 next year
Not at all.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Chatty is pretty much toast for this season
and depending on him to be a number four would be a mistake. He needs more conditioning. Physically, and mentally.
Someone posted, maybe you Nate, that we get a number four. Then have Chatty, and GTR, battle it out for the fifth spot. To me that sounds good.
We could do that and add a non-closer bullpen arm
And then we are done. Which works out fine if Kendrys Morales can DH or if Mike Trout overtakes Vernon Wells and is an absolute monster in his rookie season. Otherwise, our offense will suck again. A lot.
If that is so
Then Mike Trout has to start in left field and be a beast, or we need to save every single penny to sign Prince Fielder (rather than a pitcher), or Vernon Wells somehow needs to become very good again, or our offense will be absolutely terrible. Again.
If we sign another starter
We almost certainly will not add a bat to the lineup. Sending out Chatwood and Richards makes me nervous, sure. But Richards will be 24 next season, so it will be time for him. And although Chatwood is done right now, he is a top prospect with a season at the MLB level, so I do not see him going anywhere.
To me, it comes down to priorities. And while it of course would be a luxury to bring in an established starter to round out the rotation, I think our priority should be improving the offense…. To the extent that we can within the limitations noted in my other posts.
We need some more of that internet (and TV) money!
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Not much of a point but....
As much as we shit on Scioscia and the FO…This team HAS done a lot better than I expected. That probably goes for most of you. Unless we go for a 7-28 dive to end the year, I can say that we did a helluva lot better than I expected.
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Aug 18, 2011 2:11 PM PDT reply actions
Think of what this front office can do with a 240 mil payroll.
Might secure the wild card, at least.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 18, 2011 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The thing that really pisses me off
We just wasted some of the best starting pitching in franchise history by trotting out this uninspired offense.
The budget is screwed, there is no way to not repeat history next year.
FML
I'd like to DFA Reagins
Yes
Agree hauldog. So so true what you say. Some of the starting pitching has been Amazing!!
Was thinking earlier today how many games they’ve won like 2-1 or 1-0 thanks to Haren and Weaver, and then Lost for Haren or someone else 2-1.
Then poor Chatwood. What is it? SEVEN games where they have been shutout while he was pitching? Yikes.
Is it possible to win a game if you don’t score a run?
Nevermind. Just being a bit quirky.
Protip: Never state you are being quirky it seems try hard and lame and you become like this
HEY GUISE IM ON MY HAMBURGER PHONE AGAIN, ARENT I QUIRKY!? CAN YOU HEAR ME….ON MY HAMBURGER PHONE!?!?!
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
A Lesbian Alt chick
also never ever watch the movie Hard Candy ever ever ever
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
That movie made me root for Patrick Wilson's character. For that alone, it's horrible.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Aug 18, 2011 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
DID SUMWUN SEY CHZBURGER?
"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana
by Chzburger Jones on Aug 20, 2011 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Mmmmmm....
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Aug 18, 2011 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
OK, back to work
I am glad that the pipe dreams for Pujols and Fielder have started in mid-August. Only another five months or so until those dreams are finally shattered.
Budget already blown
$140mm payroll and who is going away? GMJ, Rodney, Pineiro, Kaz (mostly) and I don’t know who else.
The team is still stuck with roughly $120mm in payroll with Abreu, Hunter, Wells (ugh) and arbitration eligibles guys on this team coming back. Then they will have to replace Pineiro and beef up the bullpen. My guess is that they will cry poverty, make a half ass effort at a few of the top free agents and then try to put lipstick on the pig again next season.
Trade hyperbole
All good points in your analysis … but …
Pedro Martinez-Delino DeShields will still be the worst trade in MLB history.
At least the Angels improved defensively enough to compete for the title as a result of the trade. Keeping Napoli presumes that he gets into better shape (as he has done for Texas) and that Rivera/Abreu/Willits? doesn’t cost team runs in left field defensively (as they did last year).
But, yeah, Wells has been pretty terrible.
By writing that, I mean to suggest that they were soooo bad defensively in the OF last season, that improving this area with Wells has made an impact. (But one also could point to getting Torii out of CF and Bourjos out there.)
That noted, it is incredible to see how bad Wells is at the plate. And that was evident even in the spring.
Not a full-proof measure.
Rivera’s Defensive WAR last season, in 116 games was 0.0.
Wells’ Defensive WAR this season, in 92 games….-0.5
It isn’t Wells’ defense that kept us in this, it has been a full season of Bourjos, Callaspo at 3rd and Izturis being solid wherever he is put (despite his offensive mediocrity).
"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen
Thought it was stupid trade when it happened
but no way did I expect Wells to be this bad. Every time he hits he seems to regress…last night he squared a ball up on the barrel and it just didn’t go anywhere because he’s so off balance with his swing.
by grahams98 on Aug 18, 2011 2:49 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I swear everytime Hatcher works with anyone on their swing
they start hitting off their front foot, back foot comes flailing up, and they look awful.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
relax everyone
Pujols will be our DH
I take it you don't have the DOV Secret Decoder Ring
You need to drink more ovaltine
-Quad Fin Rider
Does anybody else realize that the, "he makes too much money to sit the bench", excuse makes no sense econmically.
The statement makes no sense at all. So we give up our money to get him on the team,
It's the worst kind of justification
Like driving a car that breaks down every week because it’s the more expensively ostentatious one.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Also: we all need to boo Wells mercilessly so that in a fit of madness he decides to opt out of his contract
yeah i know it’s a longshot but what else is there?
Lots of people on Soscia, BUT
what I don’t like is how he’s always so damned ‘reasonable’ no matter what happens.
I wish he’d just get good and ’t’d off’ once instead of just being the calm dude no matter what happens. Glass always half full.
To me, $86M invested in someone who is struggling to hit north of .200 and you are Really Really good if you’re able to see the glass half full.
I'm pretty sure he's been smoking Rex's stash for some time now.
Jeff Mathis career: WAR = -2.3, oWAR = -1.5, dWAR = -0.8 , Jeff Mathis's bank account: $2,492,000.
Free Agency: 2013.
After reading the vast majority of these posts
I’ve realized something. I just don’t care about the decisions or possible decisions the Angels make as long as Tony Reagins is in charge of this team. I don’t feel like saying what should be done because nothing good will come with him as the GM.
I think I’ll start engaging in these types of what should happen scenarios once Arte wakes from his nap and fires Tony’s ass.
Jim Bowden on Tony Reagins.
Style: Authoritative, brilliant baseball mind who works well in the trifecta with owner Arte Moreno and manager Mike Scioscia. Builds teams on pitching and defense up the middle. Active at trade deadlines, will trade prospects and has the resources to acquire All-Stars
by MH252525 on Aug 18, 2011 5:18 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
So, you’re saying you don’t want Barry Zito?
Pollyanna is dead. But don't get mad at me, I didn't kill her. Tony Reagins did.
I'll take Zito
If it means we’re trading Wells for Zito.
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at First2Third.net
I've actually tossed this idea around
And while even Zito is due less than Wells over the same period of time, it wouldn’t be the worst thing for either team to make that swap. Wells can get a fresh start in a town where no one hates him yet, while the Giants get a “power bat” in their laughably thin outfield.
Zito would also get a fresh start in a place where no one hates him yet, also not too far from where he grew up. The Angels would get a below average starter to fill in the number 5 slot in their rotation while freeing up left field for Trout. If Zito were to deteriorate even further, then he eventually goes to the pen or gets cut.
Plus, the only GM in the game that might be as dumb as Reagins would be Brian Sabean, so there could be something there. Thoughts?
I am having a premonition now if the angels enter into the Prince Fielder / Albert Pujols bidding war....
All other teams: We will offer you 7 years, 140 million; We will offer you 7 years, 150 million; We will offer you 8 years, 200 million…
Angels: "We will offer you 5 years, 90 million….. What?!?! You aren’t interested!? Well Screw you. Its not like your mathis quality or anything… "
This is where you contribute to the site by making this a FanShot, and linking to your source.
Nice find.
Check the list of FanPosts and FanShots to see if somebody else has already posted the story. If not, do what you did for Garret Richards.
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
You would have beat UCIHalo by about 3 minutes.
As it is, he has the FanShot up already.
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
I want to be Vernon Wells
he is paid in the top 1% of his craft yet performs in the bottom 1%. In what other universe does that even make sense, he might as well have just won the lottery.
I think player contracts are a little lopsided
When you can fall off the face of the earth yet still cash a check.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Not as bad as some owners
Crooks who own Pittsburgh, Florida pocket 40 million dollars of revenue sharing proceeds an don’t even hafto suit up and stretch on the field
dont marry the bank teller
2012 What needs to happen???
First start off by firing that POS GM Tony Reagins!! When he stepped in for Bill Stoneman, he had a already made contending team. After The Angels beating themselves in the Play-Offs against NY, The team was only missing a piece or 2 to complete the puzzle and have a shot again the next season. Instead of filling the voids, he picked this team apart and basically disrespected a player. Im still not over the way the departure of Vlad went. Reason was cause he was getting old and he has bum knees. So, his replacement was a player who is getting old and has bum knees in Matsui. Vlad has a great year, Comeback Player Of The Year numbers, while his replacement came and went. And when Tony gets his walking papers, have him take some of this garbage he brought here. This team needs a huge make-over. How many games in the past month have we had where we only got 4 hits? In 2009 at this time, every starter was hitting over 300. The ones that were on the team then, some are still here, but doing what? Hatcher, hit the road! And The BlowPen, Adios!!! Get em all gone!!! Pretty sad when your starting pitcher says ‘If you want a win, you have to go out and pitch a CG" And why in the hell is Mathis here? He’s a dumptruck!!! Napolis in Texas tearing it up, just like Vlad did, and both have laughed at The Angels by hurting us with their bats. We dont stand a chance in hell to win again unless Reagins is gone.
I would've named the post "What Needs to Happen NOW"
If I’d had any idea that even Sosh was tired of what was going on with his club.
And extending Weaver means 2013 is the same pitching core, so the Angels have at least two more years (barring catastrophic injuries) of being roughly the same squad.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Question comes at the #5 spot in the rotation
Will it be Williams, GR or do they go out and get another pitcher?
by mustang6944 on Aug 26, 2011 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
TLDNR. Correct answer is:
“Win World Series”
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
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