Is Tony Reagins Redeemed?
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Aug 22, 2011 11:50 AM PDT
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The last week of Angels baseball has been a roller-coaster of emotions ending on a high: the extension of Jered Weaver. Which admittedly, was totally unexpected. Scioscia blinked, we swept the worst team in the world, gained 2 games on Texas and re-signed our ace. Not bad.
A question still remains, though. Where does this leave Tony Reagins in the hearts and minds of a fanbase that has bashed him since he traded away the best hitting catcher in the league for a lackluster, chubby dude unaffectionately called "Big Splash" here on HH?
Remember the good days, when we called Tony "Del Ninja." Remember when Halos Heaven made shirts with references to Tony's stealth like moves and his love for Del Taco. Remember?
Well, the prodigal son has returned by actually working with Boras and signing Weaver. Will you take him back? Is he still on your shit list? Are you on the fence?
State your opinion!
This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.
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Personally, I am curious how involved he's been with the other moves...
How much involvement did he have, if any, with calling up Trout, benching Mathis, and platooning Abreu + Wells.
We’ll never know…but I am fascinated by how it all went down.
dissenter, dubious and devil's advocate to blog monitors everywhere.
by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Aug 22, 2011 11:52 AM PDT reply actions
The 84 million dollar question
What level of influence/control does Reagins and Sciosica have? how involved is Arte?
I have no way of knowing for sure, of course
But this has been such a drastic change of direction for the team that it strongly suggests that someone else has taken up the reins. Who else could that be than Arte himself?
Moreover, who among us would not have done this if we were Arte? I suspect the only difference would be that any of us would have done it earlier, say 10 seconds after Tony suggested the Wells trade?
You boys stick around--there'll be turkey and ice cream later!
Petros and Money
mostly Money said that the deal went down with Reagins and Carpino with no involvement with Arte and Boras, basically Moreno just had the final approval.
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at First2Third.net
As far as handling players, I don't think he has much say at all.
Scioscia’s decisions regarding playing time and call-ups will trump Tony’s any day.
However, the question remains for player acquisitions. No one really knows who has the most influence there. Although the Kazmir trade sounded like it was largely due to Scioscia’s involvement. One thing is for sure: once we have the rosters set, it’s Scioscia’s opinion that matters most.
by moralesforpresident on Aug 23, 2011 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Posted this on the Weaver Thread, RELEVANT here:
Tony could have said to Arte: "Look what happened to Lackey, take 2012 from the kid and cut your losses, we will get two picks like we did when we got Trout." And Arte would have said "You da man Tony, Sayonara Dudeski."
If I ever have a kid, I am so going to name it Sayonara Dudeski.
"Lose your pants and only good things can happen."-MayhemInTheHood
by Mayheminthehood on Aug 22, 2011 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
You could also call it Konichiwa Shrinkski.
You boys stick around--there'll be turkey and ice cream later!
From most reports, Reagins had little to do with this at all.
Jered told Boras he wanted to stay, and to get it done this season. He took a healthy discount to do so, and Boras wasn’t thrilled, but obeyed his client.
Had this not been a special case, and Jered was willing to play the market, Reagins would have been completely out of his depth, and Jered would be gone after 2012.
This is all on WTY — and we should be stoked for that. Reagins was just a lucky secretary in this transaction.
by Turks Teeth on Aug 24, 2011 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
fire him still
I take it you don't have the DOV Secret Decoder Ring
You need to drink more ovaltine
-Quad Fin Rider
Not redeemed
By all accounts this has everything to do with Weaver WANTING to be an Angel and be willing to make it easy and work for the club.
I wouldn’t be surprised if in the future it comes out that Weaver took less money so that the club could spend it on other players.
This fell into Tony’s lap. He shouldn’t be praised like a king for not fumbling it. That’s what he’s SUPPOSED to do.
RIP Nick Adenhart
by ihearhowie2.0 on Aug 22, 2011 12:55 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
Ding, ding, ding.... This.
Fire Tony’s sorry ass!
Chick Chicky Boom!
by Monkeyspanked on Aug 22, 2011 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Isn't this what Ned Colletti
Is famous for?
RIP Nick Adenhart 4/9/09
I blog about the Angels at First2Third.net
Have to wait for the press conference
To see what all parties have to say. Kind of listen between the lines.
What time is it? Mahalo in advance, If anybody knows.
2pm PST, manana
"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN
by 2pintsofbooze on Aug 22, 2011 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know the difference
nor do I care since I live within it :)
"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN
by 2pintsofbooze on Aug 22, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Really?
If we get any actual, meaty, information out of an LAA press conference it will be yet another first, and yet another amazing moment this week!
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
I'm thinking that we should listen to what Jered says
because we all know that Tony can do is confuse us
One good contract does not undo the worst trade ever.
I'd like to DFA Reagins
by hauldog on Aug 22, 2011 1:13 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
HIS OBP% is also higher than Vernon's SLG%.
"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana
by Chzburger Jones on Aug 23, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Would you undo the Haren trade if you could undo the VWs trade?
I wouldnt.
I brought sexy back, but they only gave me store credit....
by PhiSlamma on Aug 23, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have always thought the Wells trade was something Sosh wanted.
Better LF defense, guy with pop (they thought). Good team guy.
Tony bears responsibility for being a part of it, but I have always had the feeling that Sosh was just as guilty in that trade.
This ^^^^
Scioscia wanted Vernon. Badly. He fit the part, as misguided as the scouting reports may have been. Better defense, more power.
I still think Tony could have negotiated better, but I think our 2 players traded were Scioscia’s idea, and the player we received was Scioscia’s idea. Tony’s failure was in the money department, but Arte still had some input in that, too. I’m sure Scioscia sold Arte on the Wells acquisition, Tony and crew crunched the cash flow projections, and Arte bit.
That’s why Arte’s pissed now, and is telling Scioscia to mind his own business. (We don’t really know that to be the case, but it’s certainly plausible)
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on Aug 23, 2011 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
I also wonder about the Kazmir acquisition.
“Hey Tony, Butch and I can get the kid back on track and he beats the Red Sox. Let’s get him.”
I don't think he had a hell of a lot to do with it...
…not nothing to do with it, but he was pushing against an open door here.
I give him points for not fucking it up. That’s about it.
I give massive points to Mr Weaver himself, for knowing his own mind and pursuing it, despite the probable advice of his agent.
I see red people
by The Limey on Aug 22, 2011 1:18 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Credit to Weaver for wanting to stay
…and Boras for not screwing it up/using the Jedi mind trick on him.
Wells and Rodney’s continued existence on this team is enough for Reagins to lose his job.
Jury is still out
This team has needed another bat for close to two seasons now. It also needs at least one SP after 2011. The Weaver extension is great, but how TR handles these two needs going into 2012 will be his true test. He better not do what he did last winter.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
Kendrys is coming back
no bat needed
:(
"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN
by 2pintsofbooze on Aug 22, 2011 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
We aren't signing another bat
The other bat will be Mike Trout. If Kendrys comes back, the Wells-Abreu platoon may never play.
If Kendrys comes back
DH Kendrys
1B Trumbo
OF Trout/Bourjos/Hunter
That leaves 30 million dollars of backup outfielding. And you thought Matthews was overpaid!
"That boy is our last hope" - Obi Wan Scioscia, as Francisco Rodriguez left for the Mets. "No, there is another" - Yoda Reagins.
by RallyMonkey5 on Aug 23, 2011 6:28 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Traded for what?
Starting pitching isn’t a real pressing need right now….and the the kind of bat you would get for Trumbo probably wouldn’t make sense, meaning unless we got a superstar as part of a package we’d probably just be trading Trumbo’s youth and great upside for an older, lesser and more expensive bat. Why would we want to do that?
Unless you’re thinking we trade him for a top notch closer, and if so who do you suppose that would be? My opinion is that Walden will be fine. When he develops a third pitch and starts commanding the slider more he’ll be an elite closer I think. He’s close right now and he’s only a rookie.
Depth in the starting pitching is the pressing need for next season...
…the farm got raided pretty thoroughly for Callaspo and Haren – 6 pitchers went. They need to replace them in such a way that we’re not rolling out pitchers from AA again next season. Would also like to see some depth on the left side of the infield, preferably a 3rd baseman who is an actual threat to clear the fences more than 5 times a season.
If (and at this point it’s a big if) Morales comes back and he resembles the Kendrys we know and love, then with the outfield / DH log-jam, I don’t know where they’re going to put Trumbo.
No-one is taking Wells (there’s only one Reagins to make that mistake), Abreu is overpaid and will deliver not a whole hell of a lot (and we’d probably have to pay most of his salary anyway) and Hunter has a full no-trade. Trumbo is the only one with any value unless you just dump Abreu and use Wells as DH?
That Wells trade is going to haunt us for a long time… just the stupidest thing an Angels GM has done in years.
I see red people
The Wells trade was the stupidest thing any GM has EVER done
More Howie please...
by hk47 on Aug 27, 2011 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Redeemed ?
No.
One move did not damn him, one move isn’t going to save him.
Andrew Friedman in 2012!!!
I couldn't resist...though I tried.
For me it comes down to a couple of things:
1) We simply don’t know what roles were played by who.
We do know:
Arte doesn’t talk to Scott Boras
Tony led negotiations on behalf of the organization
Weaver ultimately decided to agree to the contract
If it’s a legal contract, someone signed on behalf of the Angels.
For all we know, this deal sat on Boras’ desk since the last negotiations. Maybe Weaver’s SoCal love became a bargaining burden for him? Maybe he wanted to avoid the distraction of free agency? Maybe the 5/85 came with a deadline? Maybe they were only a few bucks apart earlier in the season? I don’t know. I know in the offseason Boras/Weaver’s position was that Cliff Lee was a starting point, TR’s position was that King Felix was more appropriate. He signed for Felix money in the end. Until information gets out, we’re guessing for now.
2) Tony Reagins, maybe through his own fault, is in a bad double-bind.
From the onset he took a GM job with an unorthodox hierarchy structure. I imagine it was an opportunity of a lifetime, but it has proven to be a no-win arrangement. When the team won the division, including a 100 win season, in his first three seasons he got no credit because he inherited a good team and all he had to do was not mess things up. When he pulled off the Haren trade it was because Arte has friends in Arizona. Even though Torii signed his contract at a hotel restaurant, the meeting between he and Torii’s agent at Del Taco to discuss the deal was turned into Torii’s free agent signing taking place there. He goes from a puppet figure head with no power to a power hungry idiot who fires people for no reason in seconds, depending on the issue. How is it that he should be fired for Wells but had nothing to do with Haren or Weaver? He sent up Lackey and KRod, among others in 2002, but that was his first year. He ran what was considered the best farm system in mlb for years, but the credit goes to the scouts. When we lose it’s because TR built a shitty club, when we win it’s despite him. I remember posting this in the offseason, but I now believe that even if we win a world series with him as GM the double standards would survive.
"Keep pushing for us." Ervin Santana after NO-HITTER (July 27, 2011)
Points well taken
Nevertheless . . .
How is it that he should be fired for Wells but had nothing to do with Haren or Weaver?
For one thing, because the Wells trade was indefensibly and transparently bad, even if Wells were having a career-average year.
You boys stick around--there'll be turkey and ice cream later!
by rspencer on Aug 22, 2011 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
While I don’t agree, I get that this is a reason to get fired if the owner relied on his recommendation to pull the trigger. I’m just saying there’s no reason to put hedges or conditions on his accomplishments. He’s done some things very well for this organization. That doesn’t preclude the team from moving on, but this extension is definitely one of his accomplishments.
"Keep pushing for us." Ervin Santana after NO-HITTER (July 27, 2011)
by thebigtizzle on Aug 22, 2011 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
It's fairly common knowledge.
Heres a recent mention in the OCR that they haven’t spoken since the Texiera negotiations. Link
"Keep pushing for us." Ervin Santana after NO-HITTER (July 27, 2011)
by thebigtizzle on Aug 22, 2011 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Right here, in the LA Times
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/news/story?id=6062277
This story is from January, when the team began negotiating an extension with Weaver. Here are the money quotes:
Moreno said he still won’t speak directly with baseball’s most powerful agent, but that Reagins and other Angels employees are free to conduct business with him. The bad blood stems from messy negotiations to keep Mark Teixeira in Anaheim in 2008.
“My mother always told me, ‘If you don’t have something nice to say about somebody, don’t say anything,’” said Moreno, speaking at Wednesday’s introduction of newly acquired outfielder Vernon Wells. “I don’t have to deal with anybody I don’t have to deal with. That’s the way I live my life.”
I did not know that the reason that we sent Sanders and prospects to Arizona,
and got Haren back in return, was because Arte has friends in Arizona.
I don’t doubt that Arte has friends in Arizona, being a native of the state and all. I don’t doubt that he is acquanted with some of his front office peers inside the Diamondbacks organization. That would make sense, too.
But learning that Arte is so tight with people who have significant pull within the D’backs FO that he was able to wrangle away one of the top starting pitchers in baseball, and hand that deal over to his GM for some quick paperwork, well, that is pretty interesting.
Against stupidity the very Gods themselves toil in vain.
Arte used to own a piece of the D-Backs before he bought the Halos.
However, I don’t personally believe that had anything to do with the Haren trade.
If the Halos don't care about the way they play, then why should I?
I've never heard that alleged
Not sure what tizzle is responding to with that line. It would not shock me, however, if someone made a claim like that.
it was bigtwizzler sarcasm.
tony supposedly never gets credit from the peanut gallery from his more successful trades.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 22, 2011 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
At least I think it was.
I don’t know what the hell is going on anymore.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 22, 2011 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL....yeah kinda.
I remember someone actually made that claim when people were praising TR for the Haren trade. It went something like the only reason that got done is because Arte has friends in the D-Backs organization. But no, I don’t believe it one bit.
"Keep pushing for us." Ervin Santana after NO-HITTER (July 27, 2011)
by thebigtizzle on Aug 22, 2011 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
look at the Phillies / Astros
and how the Phillies steal all those trades, Wade was the Phillies GM beforehand.
Thank you for Lidge, Oswalt, and Pence, Wade.
Too smile to revile. (Excuse the grammar)
My response to your letter of February 19, 1976, is - kiss my ass.
Sincerely,
Bill Baxley, Attorney General
by sheisalovelyladyandmyapologiestoher on Aug 22, 2011 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Too rich to bitch?
"Every time I think I’m out, they pull me back in" -George Costanza
by Howie's Batting Title on Aug 23, 2011 9:47 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
That'll work!
rec’d
My response to your letter of February 19, 1976, is - kiss my ass.
Sincerely,
Bill Baxley, Attorney General
by sheisalovelyladyandmyapologiestoher on Aug 23, 2011 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions
i am not on reaggin's side, but
the wells trade is still in it’s first year. he just might put it all together next year and we will all forget all the bad stuff we said about him.i do not believe it will happen, but it could. that being said it is still the worst trade in baseball for the last thirty years or so. and if they offer anything other than the door to mathis, in the off season. fire his ass! if he had anything to do with weaver, it does not make up for the mess the team is in right now, and that is his fault.
by hoffy loves the angels on Aug 22, 2011 2:40 PM PDT reply actions
regardless of what wells does, reagins gave up 2 good players for one good one with a monster contract
He gave value in return and took a salary dump. He did the exact same thing with kazmir. You just dont do that. You give up valuable players if the other team takes the salary or you take the salary dump and give up little or nothing but the cash.
by Balls and Strikes on Aug 22, 2011 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
TONY.. BEST GM IN HISTORY
Doesn’t do anything at trade deadline. BRILLIANT.
Doesn’t sign lackey and figgy (but tried anyways). BRILLIANT.
Extends notable East Coaster Jered Weaver to a 5 year contract.. YO DA MAN!
It’s the wheelin’ and dealin’ part where Tony is a little behind the 8 ball.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
Hey clover, remember the movie "Being There"?
Maybe you’re a tad too young. The star of the film was Peter Sellers. He played a soft-spoken, dim-witted gardner named “Chance (short for Chancey?) the Gardner.” The only subject he knew anything about or could converse on was gardening. Anyway, he was mistaken for a pithy, mystic-poet-genius and his simple sentences about gardening were interpreted as profound metaphors which revealed secrets about the true nature of life.. With the backing of the mass media he became a iconic figure.
I think some folks are turning TR into a “Chance the Gardner” here. Sometimes things are what they seem. In this case Weave wanted to be here, and that folks, is why he is here. You know, I also always suspected that the Torii signing was predominantly about Torii also wanting to be here instead of somewhere else (being there), and not so much about Del Taco inspired genius.
by Jack Frostt on Aug 22, 2011 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't catch the movie, however, it is actually in the middle of my netflix que, hah... had to bump it up to the top spot.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 23, 2011 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions
The question presumes that TR needed to be redeemed
I have maintained all along that he has a mixed track record, with many great moves and a few that turned out terribly for the team. This doesn’t change that. TR’s great moves are often trivialized here. They shouldn’t be.
Above all else, TR has helped shape our current rotation and ensured that Weaver, Haren, and Santana will remain under team control for several more years at reasonable contracts. After the 2009 season, TR signed Santana to a 4-year, $30 million contract extension, with a team option for a fifth season at $13 million. He also refused to offer more than 4 years to Lackey. Both moves were key. In 2010, TR traded for Haren, who is signed at $12.75 million next season and has a team option of $15.5 million for 2013. And now he has signed Weaver to an extension through 2016, at an average annual cost of $17 million. That means that, because of TR’s moves, the Angels have had and will continue to have one of the best 1-2-3 in baseball for a total cost of $28 million in 2011, $41 million in 2012, and $45.5 million in 2013. That is an incredibly cost-effective way to ensure that the team is competitive.
The trades for Teixeira and Callaspo also were great, as were the signings of Abreu and Downs.
TR’s failings come down, principally, to the Napoli-and-Rivera-for-Wells trade and the trade for Kazmir. These moves have been discussed at great length on this site. The trade for Kazmir was defensible at the time and, in fact, generally praised in the media. It turned out to be a waste of approximately $25 million. The Napoli-Wells trade was generally lampooned at the time, and it has turned out even worse than the worst predictions. That deal cost us $76 million and a slugging catcher.
So there is both good and bad when it comes to TR. As I and others have pointed out many times, this is the same as almost any other General Manager, whether they operate on a small budget (Billy Beane), a moderate budget (Kenny Williams), or a huge budget (Brian Cashman). I don’t think TR deserves to be the subject of fawning praise (the “Ninja”) or of derision or hateful attacks. We are very fortunate to have an owner in Arte who has given this team the budget to be aggressive and enjoy the benefits that come with that, even while absorbing the mistakes. Other teams do not have that luxury, and I am so grateful that we do.
by Brody on Aug 22, 2011 3:51 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
Huh?
This GM is responsible for the worst trade in baseball history.
The question is presuming nothing. Tony needs REDEMPTION.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 22, 2011 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't forget
Picking up Rodney the year after his gaudy, flukey save total, even though the whole baseball world knew he was a gas can complete with matches.
You're not wrong, but...
You have to weigh each incident against each other and look at Reagins involvement in each. The Wells trade was unconscionable. No other general manager would have considered in for more than two seconds. Hell, most 8 year olds playing a video game wouldn’t have considered it- and that’s not even taking into account all of the money that we wasted in the deal. There was virtually no way that deal could pan out and of course, it turned out to be even more awful in hindsight. I was also very against the Kazmir deal when it went down- I think most people in baseball knew that he had a bad arm and the financials didn’t make sense at all. But that was at least a trade with potential benefit. The Wells trade- completely insane.
Let’s take all of your positive points: The Callaspo/Teixeira trades made measurable positive impacts, but nothing close to what the Wells trade did to hurt us. He TRIED to sign Lackey, but couldn’t. At the time, this looked like a failure, but turned out well for us in retrospect. Again lucky. Good move to let Figgins walk, but again, at the time, it wasn’t likely that either Figgins or Lackey would provide the least bang for the buck out of any free agent signing that offseason. Lucky points to Reagins for being outbid here. Haren trade I will give Reagins credit for- that was a great trade with almost all upside. Has made a very positive impact on the team. Weaver signing was more Weaver than anything else.
At the end of the day, Reagins gets tons of credit for the Haren trade, but even when you combine that deal with the other good moves, the franchise has gotten worse during his tenure because of his shortcomings and bad deals/non-deals. More discouraging is the fact that he had the mindset to make the Wells trade in the first place. That is the mark of an insane man not fit to run a baseball franchise.
I don't necessarily disagree with you
The Wells trade was a colossal mistake. It would not be unreasonable, in my opinion, to fire someone for a mistake like that. But I tend to believe that good people can make a very bad mistake, and I think that the rest of his performance, on balance, is very good. For some people, that will never be enough. I get that. But I don’t agree with the attempts by many to downplay or entirely ignore the good that he has done (not saying you are doing this). I personally trust Arte enough to decide whether TR deserves to keep his job. And I will support whatever that decision is because I know that he is in the best position to analyze TR’s performance.
As to the Kazmir and Rodney moves, I know some people thought the Kaz deal was bad, but most thought it was good. Haren also was having a down year when we traded for him. Kaz was very young, and it was not unreasonable to think that he could be fixed. The cost, while not trivial, was not prohibitive. In fact, at $25 million over 2 and a half seasons, Kaz only had to pitch like a capable #4 starter to justify the contract. Unfortunately, he didn’t. Rodney has been bad, although (also unfortunately) not our worst reliever the past two years. In the grand scheme, $5.5 million per season for two years is nothing for a team with a $130 million payroll. These transgressions just are not that bad, at least to me.
by Brody on Aug 23, 2011 4:43 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
And I don't think we really tried to sign Lackey
We offered him a contract — 4 years for $60 million — just like we offered contracts to Vlad and Figgy. But we knew none of them would accept those contracts. If anything, the trade for Kazmir and signing of Pineiro were in anticipation of Lackey’s departure.
by Brody on Aug 23, 2011 4:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Dont forget to add Kazmir
Kazmir figured to be one of the top 3 in the rotation and because he laid an egg it forced the trade for Haren. Angels still on the hook for Kazmir’s 12M this yr along with Haren’s salary.
by Angel Aviator on Aug 26, 2011 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
STONEMAN FOREVER
I take it you don't have the DOV Secret Decoder Ring
You need to drink more ovaltine
-Quad Fin Rider
BAVASI WHENEVER
My response to your letter of February 19, 1976, is - kiss my ass.
Sincerely,
Bill Baxley, Attorney General
by sheisalovelyladyandmyapologiestoher on Aug 22, 2011 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Was he ever deemed to begin with?
AWB - Thank you, Arte.
Hell freaking no.
Thanks for Weave, Tony.
The door is over there.
"F it, let's pitch." - Ervin Santana
by Chzburger Jones on Aug 22, 2011 11:37 PM PDT reply actions
Reagins redeemed? No!
Mike Napoli on August 22: .293/384.593
Vernon Wells on August 22: .204/.236/.369
Tony Reagins can kiss my ass.
A wise man does not need advice and a fool won't take it.
Throw in Rivera's slash line
With TOR: .243/.305/.343
With LAD: .321/.370/.472
No one could have predicted what Wells has done, but it was easy to predict that we gave up too much, considering we ended up only getting $5 mill from Toronto.
"I have one word for you...Be careful."
-Jose Guillen
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
The smartest (and easiest) thing a team can do is retain their players. From a logical standpoint, if you know a player is successful in your home environment and has shown to be productive under those circumstances, that’s about as much a “sure thing” as you can get. On the flip side, when you acquire a player via free agency or trade you don’t know what you’re going to get.
Take Vernon Wells for example. He was somewhat successful in Toronto, and the hope was that he would be similarly productive in Anaheim as he was in Toronto. Obviously he has not been successful in this environment with a completely different offense around him.
The main criticism I have with the Angels front office is that they don’t tend to lock up their core home-grown players as well as they should. They attempt to maximize a player’s value by going through their arbitration years and wait till free agency to lock them up. As we have seen before, the Angels are dreadful in free agency, and if you give a player the chance to weigh offers from other teams, the Angels’ odds of retaining them become that much slimmer. Guys like Howie Kendrick and Erick Aybar need to be signed to extensions before they get a taste of free agency. One thing is certain about contract extensions, you better do it as soon as possible or a player will just wait to test the free agent market (look no further than Jose Reyes).
by moralesforpresident on Aug 23, 2011 1:03 AM PDT reply actions
retaining players is not as simple as you say in the beginning
I’m pretty glad Figgins and Lackey didn’t resign, even though they had good years right before they headed into free agency
Don't completely agree here river....
You are not acknowledging ‘moraledforpresident’ s point about a player thriving in a particular environment. And, of course, there are many, many factors that go into that. It might be weather, ballpark factors, comfort of the social environment; lots of things.
With the exception of those cases where there is a hx of injuries or health concerns (more frequently with pitchers, and I know many folks here had those concerns about Lackey. With Figgins there were not those concerns) it does make sense that a player succeeding in a particular milieu with a familiar supporting cast (not just players but manager and coaches) is more likely to repeat his performance in that same situation than elsewhere.There are simply fewer variables that would potentially effect performance/numbers.
I would also make a disclaimer about players on the “downside” of their careers (let’s say 34 yrs old or older). I don’t think looking at either Lackey or Figgins prior to their free-agency one could say they were on the “downside” of their careers.Especially Figgins, coming off a career year. In short, it is wrong to assume because Figgins and Lackey have thus far been disappointments in their respective “new” situations that they would also have been so if they stayed in Anaheim. I give you this:
The smartest (and easiest) thing a team can do is retain their players. From a logical standpoint, if you know a player is successful in your home environment and has shown to be productive under those circumstances, that is about as much a “sure thing” as you can get.
Maybe you are “happy” Lackey and Figgins didn’t sign because of the money and how you thought that would effect the Angels down the road. If that is your thinking then, in a sense, I understand that and I won’t quibble. But if your happiness is based soley on their respective performances thus far in Seattle and Boston then I think you are making inappropriate assumptions.
Hmmm, not sure about their lack of signing home grown players being a bad thing
Garret Anderson
2006 $10.6MM (OPS+ 94)
2007 $11.6MM (OPS+ 114)
2008 $12.6MM (OPS+ 97)
Tim Salmon
2005 $10MM (zero AB’s)
Darin Erstad
2005 $8.25MM (OPS+ 87)
2005 $8.75MM (OPS+ 57)
I’m not saying this to rag on these players – they’re favorites of all of ours. But the Halos have signed home grown players to extensions – they just don’t always work out. And who knows if we had signed Lackey to an extension? Would he still have a 6.02 ERA with us? Maybe not, but he’s certainly not worth the $82.5MM contract he signed.
Signing home grown players requires the same analytic skill that signing free agents does. Therefore, no, I’m not sure that signing Aybar to a 4/$40MM deal is a wise move.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on Aug 23, 2011 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I actually saw Reagins last night
He was having dinner in my restaurant. There were so many things I wanted to say to him, but all I could muster up was “Thank you, have a good night…” as he left.
And no, he hasn’t redeemed himself. The deal was all about Weaver. All Tony had to do was not get his giant melon in the way.
which restaurant?
"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN
by 2pintsofbooze on Aug 23, 2011 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
my buddy saw Weaver at Javiers in Newport on saturday night
I guess he told him to blow up (in a bad way) the rest of the season since I bet him that Weaver would win the Cy Young. I told my buddy that it was because of him Weaver signed the extension the next day.
"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN
by 2pintsofbooze on Aug 23, 2011 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Wood Ranch, in Anaheim Hills
I’m a manager there and the only person in the place that knew he who he was. He seemed like he was having dinner with his wife or something, so I didn’t want to impose on him. Well, I did want to, but decided it wouldn’t look to professional. Plus, I spend so much energy ragging on him that I’d feel like a tool if I were to kiss his ass in person.
I had the pulled pork sandwich there about a month ago.
Pretty good. However, the GF got the tri-tip sandwich, and it was amazing.
Carry on.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 23, 2011 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
this is what I would've done
as he was walking out I would’ve said “Weaver!” and gave him a thumbs up coupled with a big shit eating grin. Then as he was feeling good about himself I would’ve said “Vernon!” and gave him a thumbs down, scowled and shook my head back and forth slowly. I would then turn away and carry on with my work.
"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some douche named DFA from AN
by 2pintsofbooze on Aug 23, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
It will take much more than the Weaver signing
to atone for the obscenity of the Wells contract, which is guaranteed to cripple the Angels for the next few years.
Hope in one hand and sh^t in the other
Tell me which one fills up faster.
I hope this comes true. I really do, but I do not see it.
I'd like to DFA Reagins
Of course he's not
He seemed to have little to do with Jered’s intense desire to play in Anaheim.
If anything, this should be about elevating Jered Weaver to St. Jered Weaver of Anaheim.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
I love it when the facts come out.
A couple of days ago I posited:
For all we know, this deal sat on Boras’ desk since the last negotiations. Maybe Weaver’s SoCal love became a bargaining burden for him? Maybe he wanted to avoid the distraction of free agency? Maybe the 5/85 came with a deadline? Maybe they were only a few bucks apart earlier in the season? I don’t know. I know in the offseason Boras/Weaver’s position was that Cliff Lee was a starting point, TR’s position was that King Felix was more appropriate. He signed for Felix money in the end. Until information gets out, we’re guessing for now.
On the occasion of his great grandchildren’s trust fund, however, Weaver found himself defending the contract, the organization, his agent and a decision – according to sources – reached against a Saturday night deadline set by the club. Weaver’s choice was to accept the deal or have it withdrawn until the offseason, when the Angels would measure his demands against the likelihood he’d be lost to free agency after 2012 anyway, implying he could be traded.
Of course this doesn’t work without the character of Weaver and his love for socal, but it’s refreshing to see that there’s some validity to questioning preconceived/prevailing notions. Jared didn’t wake up and say hey tell those guys I want a deal done. He was responding to a deadline. The fact is TR had everything to do with it and he got it done.
"Keep pushing for us." Ervin Santana after NO-HITTER (July 27, 2011)
I liked that sausage better
When I didn’t know how it was made.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
Now you can take your hand out of your pants,
and give yourself a pat on the back.
by eyespy on Aug 24, 2011 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
You should try participting in other topics about Angels baseball.
MIght seem less hypersensitive and agenda driven.
Strange.
What do you need a fancy suit for, Charlie, you ain't got no job to wear it to.
by clover_black on Aug 24, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
In this situation the deadline was not necessary
What event drove the deadline? The need to figure out whether or not to trade Weaver if he wasn’t going to sign with the Halos? Well, most offseason trades don’t occur until the Winter meetings…but since TR tends to show up late for those types of events, even a December deadline is not necessary.
Weaver is the best player on this team. He is currently the face of the franchise, he is dominant in his chosen profession. The Angels were asking Weaver to do them a favor – sign a contract below the market Weaver could command. Again, Arte’s the brilliant business guy – why do you treat your best employee in this manner?
I really don't think it was a hostile move at all...
I have to say that I am not an advocate of this approach and have dissed it plenty. However, I think Arte is big on the 5 year limit and TR thinks he can accomplish those contracts with deadlines. I can’t prove it, but I suspect Stoneman also disagrees with it.
In this case, I think they were making opportunity out of Jered’s character. Once he couldn’t hide his love for the team/location, got engaged, and got deep into a playoff and Cy Young chase, he became “approachable”. Sounds like they dropped something off with a one month deadline. The deadline, in this case, exists because the offer becomes sorta moot post-October, because as you say winter meetings are coming. Now the offer stands up against free agent offers and would be laughable. You NEED this guy to sign this while he’s emotionally ripe. They would offer another (this wasn’t a take it or leave it), but they will look at major trade options too after the season. Without a no-trade clause, Jered could have ended up anywhere. It seems like a mutual opportunity deadline, not a gun to the head approach. I suspect if it was, Boras would have smelled it, and we’d all be up shits creek.
"Keep pushing for us." Ervin Santana after NO-HITTER (July 27, 2011)
by thebigtizzle on Aug 24, 2011 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I mean free agent offers for other players/pitchers.
"Keep pushing for us." Ervin Santana after NO-HITTER (July 27, 2011)
by thebigtizzle on Aug 24, 2011 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure
the deadline was there primarily to ensure the process didn’t drag out during the pennant race and cause a distraction to not only Weaver, but also the guys in the FO.
"You realize that Ive been posting on AN since 07 on this name and I am one of the most rec'ed posters there right?" - Some tool named Designatedforassignment from Athletics Nation
by 2pintsofbooze on Aug 24, 2011 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
The issue with the deadline is blown out of proportion
It would probably be more appropriate to say “this offer is valid until X date.” Until that time, Boras was free to accept the Angels offer. After that date, Boras would have had to come up with an “original” offer of his own. The two sides had clearly worked to this point, discussing parameters etc., so I doubt it was a “take it or leave it” type of situation. It might not have even been the final level the Angels were willing to go to. They simply presented an offer that, at this juncture, Weaver felt comfortable accepting.
In almost any negotiation, you give the other party only a certain amount of time to think it over. Very few offers are open ended.
"There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." - Woody Hayes
by johnnyangel101 on Aug 25, 2011 7:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe next he'll show up to the off-season meetings on time
And then not have to piss away a power bat for a bloated contract in an attempt to save his own ass!
But hey, baby steps!
Tim Salmon: The once and future Kingfish.
this team still can't beat texas
so fuck tony
Somewhere, right now, Mickey Hatcher is ruining a swing.
by Quinlan's Goofy Swing on Aug 26, 2011 11:20 PM PDT reply actions
up shit creek
and tony reagins is betraying our fandom and nether regions with the paddle.
Somewhere, right now, Mickey Hatcher is ruining a swing.
by Quinlan's Goofy Swing on Aug 27, 2011 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Look at it this way
If TR decided at the end of the season to leave the Angels, would there be any other ML baseball franchise recruiting him to be their GM?
The issue is not that we, the loons in the blogosphere, do not give TR credit or respect for his job performance. I suspect there’s little support for TR within his peer group (MLB GMs) or respect of his performance by MLB owners.
Toronto or Tampa Bay might feel compelled out of guilt to give him some sort of job.
Just not one that involves decision-making, analyzing, formal dress, not-looking-like-a-turtle or selecting where the team will eat meals.
AWB - Thank you, Arte.
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