Poor Manny

by mattwelch on Feb 22, 2006 12:33 AM PST

http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/angels/la-sp-angrep22feb22,1,4368183.story?coll=la-headli nes-sports-mlb-angels

Disgruntled Boston slugger Manny Ramirez was so eager to be traded to the Angels this winter that he called former Red Sox teammate Orlando Cabrera, now the Angel shortstop, for a scouting report not on the coaching staff or clubhouse culture but on the Southern California media. [...]
"Oh my God, he wants to come here," Cabrera said. "He'd be happy here."

This thing's still in play, I tells ya. Stoneman's just kickin' back....

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HEH HEH HEH

Don't ever play poker with Stoneman...

Esteban Yan for Manny straight up!

by Rev Halofan on Feb 22, 2006 12:42 AM PST reply actions

Yan

ahahaha I would take that any day, too bad Yan is practically worthless

by Neo8234 on Feb 22, 2006 8:27 AM PST up reply actions

Poor Manny

I'm not crying any tears for Manny Ramirez.

To me he embodies all the worst stereotypes of the spoiled millionaire athlete, with a sense of entitlement to make the illegitimate President look tame. This guy proclaims he wants to play in Anaheim and then everyone and his brother is supposed to bend over backwards to make it happen simply because HE wants it and he's Manny Ramirez. I don't care if he's friends with Orlando Cabrera -- we're not running a Summer Camp here, we're trying to win another Championship.

He WANTS to come here -- Well, forget it. I wouldn't trade Santana straight up for this guy. Stoneman is doing the right thing by not bringing this idiot aboard. We don't need that cancer on our team. Let him rot in Boston with that mob of bitter, obnoxious, beer guzzling bozos who call themselves fans.

There's a reason we got rid of Jim Edmonds, so let's not forget that.

by Jack Frost on Feb 22, 2006 8:36 AM PST up reply actions

fun

i think having manny as an angel would be fun -- he's a total oddball, and we don't see many colorful characters in sports anymore. yeah, he's spoiled, but for some reason i don't mind it so much.

obviously, the angels need his bat badly. adding him to the lineup would transform it completely.

is it worth putting up with all his goofy star crap? i say hell yeah.

by yeswecan on Feb 22, 2006 11:59 AM PST reply actions

But with declining away splits

.320/.405/.595
.301/.392/.584
.280/.363/.573

I think it was Matt Welch who pointed this out. Ramirez is declining pretty fast. Overpaying in any measure is a problem, and it's one reason the Sox keep talking about it. If Stoneman can pull it off without giving up too much, I'm in favor, else Boston can keep their sluggin' slacker.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by scareduck on Feb 22, 2006 12:54 PM PST up reply actions

HRs

power is what the angels need, and manny has it.

by yeswecan on Feb 22, 2006 12:58 PM PST up reply actions

Man Ram

Final offer:

Redsox: Pay enough of Manny's salary such that the Angels will pay no more than they do to Vlad in a given season
Angels: Get ManRam

Remember, the Red Sox tried to give him away, putting him on waivers, but no takers, so, They have to do one better.

Eat My Angel Dust.

by Angels95 on Feb 22, 2006 12:49 PM PST reply actions

OC In the OC Register

Check out this Register article on the situation:

"He really wanted me to talk to people here to tell them that he really wants to come here," Cabrera said. "I don't have that kind of power. I don't mess around with that, trying to become the GM or anything like that. That's not my job."

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by scareduck on Feb 22, 2006 12:49 PM PST reply actions

yan and carrasco

how about we get rid of our now hugely overpaid pen boys for him... that frees up a spot in the pen for the drunk and disorderly weaver boy too.

by Zookeeper on Feb 22, 2006 5:25 PM PST reply actions

wow, the Red Sox had to be high....

from the LA Times:

Boston is believed to have requested reliever Scot Shields, utility player Chone Figgins, top prospects Brandon Wood and Howie Kendrick, and for the Angels to assume virtually all of the $57 million left on Ramirez's contract.

by thewebb on Feb 22, 2006 7:39 PM PST reply actions

Stoneman on Man-Ram

Stoneman was on national radio today, being interviewed by espn's Colin Cowherd. He said they discussed Manny with the Sox but never came close to putting a deal together. He said trading for Manny would have required them to absorb a huge salary and "tear the system apart" by sending the future of the team to Boston. Just didn't make any sense. In the end, it was more media blather and "Manny blather" than anything else.

by G Abbes on Feb 23, 2006 2:32 PM PST reply actions

positioning

Stoneman's positioning the Angels for better leverage after Manny pulls off another Beantown-baffling "Manny Being Manny" performance.

I say "get his ass here asap."

strike that. make that his "bat."

by yeswecan on Feb 23, 2006 4:28 PM PST up reply actions

sign em up

time to make the deal happen...

AK
Rivera
Shell or Boot (both)
draft pick

Halo Fever P239

by P237 on Feb 23, 2006 4:39 PM PST reply actions

Nope.

Unlike in the NFL, you cannot trade draft picks in MLB.

by Mr Sabermetric Spock on Feb 23, 2006 6:17 PM PST up reply actions

you statheads think you are so smart

so what if angels season ticket holders don't know that you can't trade draft picks in MLB? who cares about useless "facts" like that? you just wish you had erstad.

you're probably a closet a's fan. what has your team ever done? come back when you guys win a few world championships like we have or at least produce a hall of famer or two.

by truegrit on Feb 24, 2006 4:26 AM PST up reply actions

Hey look a troll

Tell me that every person posting to your team's site knows the nuances of MLB traded rules and exact player history acquisition of your team. What bullshit.

by Rev Halofan on Feb 24, 2006 11:09 AM PST up reply actions

Manny the Manwich

Frankly, I'm a little leery about any trades involving the Red Sox. The name "Mo Vaughn" ring any bells?

"Driven in to right-center field... Erstad says he has it..."

by mheumann on Feb 23, 2006 4:56 PM PST reply actions

Mo Vaughn

was not traded.

From Baseball-Referemce:

December 11, 1998: Signed as a Free Agent with the Anaheim Angels.

by Mr Sabermetric Spock on Feb 23, 2006 6:16 PM PST up reply actions

man

you're smart, Mr. Spock! you've got the facts, Jack!

by yeswecan on Feb 23, 2006 6:40 PM PST up reply actions

It's easy to have the facts

when you wander over to baseball-reference

by Mr Sabermetric Spock on Feb 23, 2006 7:36 PM PST up reply actions

He's Right

I sponsored the ERSTAD page even though they won't come up with a stat for guts.

by Rev Halofan on Feb 23, 2006 8:43 PM PST up reply actions

Red Sox Trade

We got screwed enough with that Rick Burleson trade with Boston that it does have some poetic mojo caveat-age if you what i mean.

by Rev Halofan on Feb 23, 2006 6:48 PM PST up reply actions

does that still sting

26 years later?

by Mr Sabermetric Spock on Feb 23, 2006 7:38 PM PST up reply actions

only when I pee

by Rev Halofan on Feb 23, 2006 8:44 PM PST up reply actions

I'm to the point where...

we should just screw Manny unless they blow us away with a deal.

by thewebb on Feb 23, 2006 5:09 PM PST reply actions

patience, young skywalker

the panther waits....

by yeswecan on Feb 23, 2006 5:43 PM PST up reply actions

screw? blow?

sorry but this is a blog for god's team from good ol orange county.
what are you, a Clintonista feminazi?

by truegrit on Feb 24, 2006 4:32 AM PST up reply actions

Keep trying, grit-head!

by mattwelch on Feb 24, 2006 7:24 AM PST up reply actions

I think...

he should ask a Mexican.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by scareduck on Feb 24, 2006 3:43 PM PST up reply actions

County de NARANJA

I love how people stereotype OC as a lillywhite redneckville and don't realize it is more ethnically diverse than almost anywhere on earth.

by Rev Halofan on Feb 24, 2006 11:18 AM PST up reply actions

Manny, Manny, Manny........

I have posted here before, and yes I am a Sox's fan.

As I have said, THE SOX DON'T NEED TO TRADE MANNY. If we get blown away in the deal, which isn't likely to happen, then I could see it happening. Red Sox Nation and the media won't accept this if we don't get the upper hand in this deal. Manny is an icon in Boston and the loss of him would certainly have the average fan in an uproar, despite all his shananigans. IMO, it is you the Angels that might make this deal. I'm not saying it will happen by any standards, but you lack a power bat to protect Vlad. To be honest, I think giving Casey Kotchman that role will create a ton of pressure for him and ultimately a mistake. The kid is 23. He may have a lot of promise, and I am a big fan of his despite being from Beantown, but I think he needs a full season in the major leagues before we can peg him in for 20-30 HR's. I mean the guy hasn't hit above 10 HR's in a season IN THE MINORS.

Theo is no dumbass. He will not do the deal unless it favors the Sox. In order for it to favor the Sox, one of Wood, Kendrick, or Santana has to be included with Kotchman, Aybar, or McPherson. The reprucusions of completing a deal that does not favor the Sox could greatly damage Theo and the front office, not that it isn't already. I know, you can call me crazy all you want, but that is the truth. Boston has dealt with many "Manny being Manny" issues in the past. If Boston is out of the race at the All-Star break and Anaheim is in it, then I could see a deal getting done. The chances of that happening though, are one in a million.

Now that I've shown my perspective, I'll try to act on yours. Yes you would be giving up a lot in the farm system for Manny. What it comes down to is, do you want to try to win it all for the next three years, or do you want to wait a couple more years, develop the young talent and be able to compete for the next ten years. If I was given the choice of the two, I would have to take the latter. On the other hand, the young talent that is coming up could never fully develop and turn into nothing. That is always a possibility. A prospect is a prospect, something that has a CHANCE at happening. I don't know what sites you go by for prospect rankings, but if you look at BA, my personal favorite, you will see many guys that have been in the top 10 that are complete busts. Look no further than, Josh Hamilton, Ryan Anderson, Matt White, Ruben Rivera, Brien Taylor, Roger Salkeld, Alan Benes, Kiki Jones, Pablo Ozuna, Drew Henson, Brandon Phillips, Wilson Betemit, Ruben Mateo, Ruben Rivera, Kaz Matsui, and Tyrone Hill. Just looking at last years list, Hanley Ramirez has yet to produce like his tools say he should.

by diamondawgs28 on Feb 24, 2006 7:49 AM PST reply actions

HA HA HA HA

The Kotchman Under Pressure strawman makes an appearance. HAHAHAHA

by Rev Halofan on Feb 24, 2006 11:10 AM PST up reply actions

refreshing

kotchman won't hit 120 rbi this year, but i like his attitude. when was the last time you heard a baseball player say something like this (from the LA Times:

"Pressure is dodging bullets, not knowing where your next meal is coming from," Kotchman said. "This is fun. This is a game."

by yeswecan on Feb 24, 2006 11:29 AM PST up reply actions

you're right, sorta

the sox don't NEED to trade manny, but they definitely want to. manny wants out of there badly, so i say "welcome"!

the angels need him badly, too. while we can all dream of 30-HR seasons from kotchman and mcnotfearsome, both are unproven as big-league hitters.

by yeswecan on Feb 24, 2006 11:12 AM PST up reply actions

Stoneman too tight to deal!

Let's face it, Bill Stoneman won't pull the trigger on ANY reasonable deal with Boston to acquire Manny Ramirez because he's TOO paranoid about giving up a ANY solid veteran player as well as ANY top prospect who may become a potentially strong ML player.
The last deal that was reported had the Sox asking for Scot Shields,Chone Figgins,Kendicks and Wood. Now,that may be a bit much for Stoneman to swallow but the Angels certainly could afford to negotiate and give up ONE top prospect as well as both Figgins and Shields perhaps substituting Juan Rivera in the deal. Manny could rotate with Anderson between LF and DH providing a powerful stabilizing force in the Angels lineup hitting between Guerrero and GA.
The "poker playing" Stoneman may be a gambler that is going to go "BUST" if he keeps playing his present lineup TOO CLOSE to his vest!

by DaddyWags on Feb 24, 2006 11:52 AM PST reply actions

Would you really...

...agree to that deal? One of the best (if not the best) utility players, an exceptional set-up man, and two of the most highly regarded prospects in all of baseball?

And not one of those players is a day over 30.

by NPCody on Feb 24, 2006 12:55 PM PST up reply actions

Actually,

Scot Shields is 30 now.

by pattimelt on Feb 24, 2006 12:59 PM PST up reply actions

Oh no..

" but the Angels certainly could afford to negotiate and give up ONE top prospect as well as both Figgins and Shields perhaps substituting Juan Rivera in the deal."

Uh no. Not just NO, but HELL NO.

If I was Stoney, there is no way I would give up Figgy AND Scot, let alone one of the TOP prospects.

No teams wanted to claim Manny off waivers last year, what makes you think we'll give up the ship for him???

by pattimelt on Feb 24, 2006 12:58 PM PST up reply actions

value for value

Tell me you don't seriously think that having Manny's bat in the middle of the Angels lineup is worth at least One top prospect, a good setup relief pitcher, a good utility player and 4th OFer/DH?...the gain certainly out weighs the loss!...hell, Theo Epstein probably would consider anything less than TWO top prospects an insult anyway!...Stoneman is so ridiculous that the best he reportedly countered with back in December was Erstad and Finley!...that kind of negotiating will come back to bite him one way or another!

by DaddyWags on Feb 24, 2006 2:46 PM PST reply actions

insane

to give up everything you've outlined AND pay him the 400 million dollars or whatever, over 3 years.

by atomburn on Feb 24, 2006 3:32 PM PST up reply actions

I think

Figgy and Shields alone are more valuable to the Angels than Manny would be

by Higz on Feb 24, 2006 4:55 PM PST up reply actions

Right, but...

Figgins, Shields, Wood, Kendrick / Manny (at least in the Angels' situation)

The offer could be on the table right now and I wouldn't take it.

by NPCody on Feb 24, 2006 9:26 PM PST up reply actions

Oops

That is meant to say - Figgins, Shields, Wood, Kendrick does not = Manny.

by NPCody on Feb 24, 2006 9:27 PM PST up reply actions

weak offense

Hey, I'm all for praising the present and future Angel roster players, but the reality is that they were in the middle of the pack for the '05 season in the AL in runs scored and 11th(out of 14 teams)in OPS.(despite Vlad's consistent #'s)and are projected by Baseball Prospectus' PECOTA projection to be just ahead of KC in offense for the '06 season! ...with no offensive help in the offseason look for Vlad to be at the top in IBB's again...if Kotchman feels the heat and Anderson continues on his slow decline, who does Scioscia turn to to drive in AND score runs?... O.C.?, Figgins?, Erstad?...waiting for McPherson, Wood, Kendrick, Morales, Callaspo and Aybar won't get it done for this and probably next season either...Manny can be almost be guaranteed to hit 35-45 HR's, plate 125 RBI's and has a lifetime OBP is over .400...just remember,a happy Manny is a productive Manny and Southern CAL is where Manny wants to be !..the man's a "hitting machine"!... and don't get fooled, Arte Moreno can afford Manny's remaining 3 years if he'd just pry that fat wallet of his open with a crow bar!

by DaddyWags on Feb 24, 2006 8:19 PM PST reply actions

the money's not the issue

The rediculous offer is.

Vlad protection should be:

GA
Rivera
Kotchman or Erstad
Kotchman or Erstad

If MacPherson plays his way into the lineup and bats 6 or 7 it only gets better. The more I look at it, that's not too damn bad.

It's funny how everyone is making Epstein out to be a genius just because he pulled his I'm leaving, now I'm back move. He's been bailed out on a lot of dumb moves, and he was willing to make questionable/unpopular moves that happened to work out for him (Garciaparra/waivering Manny). He has tried to move Manny since he's been there. Any team would be foolish to give a lot for a flaky-no defense Manny starting to decline. Sure, he's a fantastic hitter and I'd love his protection this year and maybe for a couple more, but Arte/Stoneman have made it clear they want to contend every year, not buy a title.

by thewebb on Feb 24, 2006 8:33 PM PST up reply actions

It's not about praise, it's about prudence

I'm all for praising the present and future Angel roster players, but the reality is that they were in the middle of the pack for the '05 season in the AL in runs scored and 11th(out of 14 teams)in OPS.

They were in the middle of the pack because:

Steve Finley was fouling up CF
Jeff DaVanon was foulding up DH
Darin Erstad was fouling up 1B

Erstad (and whoever replaces him against lefties or when he's injured) is much better on offense than Finley.
McPherson (and whoever) are much better than DaVanon.
Kotchman's better than Erstad.

Before you go crying in your beer over 2005 stats, you should acknowledge that the team will almost certainly be better at three positions, and worse at only one. Yes, I'd like to have a RH masher, but not necessarily a $17 million rapidly declining flake who can't play defense.

by mattwelch on Feb 24, 2006 10:37 PM PST up reply actions

ironically

Manny's declne this year will get him released - and guess who he will be with then...

by Rev Halofan on Feb 24, 2006 10:47 PM PST up reply actions

We don't want Manny !

"Flaky" and "no defense" are too kind to him; how about "primadonna," "headcase," "egotist" and a an absolute butcher in the outfield.

With the way Stoneman et. al handled the Jose Guillen situation they showed the baseball world what this organization is about: the Angels are now a no-nonsense winning organization that doesn't tolerate crybabies or spoiled narcissists like Manny Ramirez.

To top it off, all of the offers put on the table by that prep-school punk Theo Epstein have been insults to Bill Stoneman, the Angels organization and the Angels fans.

Stoneman doesn't believe in solving one problem that only creates three new ones.

by Jack Frost on Feb 25, 2006 12:44 AM PST up reply actions

I think we may be underestimating Erstad...

Last year was the first year he didn't handle lefties particularly well, so I look for it to be more of a fluke. This was magnified last year against Leiter in the playoffs, but come on, a lot of good left handed hitters struggle against lefty bullpen specialists. We need a guy like this in the lineup full time in '06 so when we make the playoffs we can have the guy that has only hit below .300 in a playoff series once (and sadly his .235 against the White Sox last year was respectable in comparison to everyone else).

Injuries also may be a little overblown. In the last 6 years he has played over 150 games 4 times. He found a brace two years ago that properly supports the hamstring issues, and let's hope the lighter one he's using this year does the same trick.

Just like the backup quarterback, everyone loves the young prospect, but let's not say we're going to rely on them more than the proven vets until they at least have a full year of proof under their belts.

by thewebb on Feb 25, 2006 7:10 AM PST up reply actions

Right on Brother!

Almost everyone is dissing Erstad and what he brings to this team. Yes he had a bit of a down year for him OFFENSIVELY. But look at everything else he brought; 1) unmatched work ethic and determination 2) incredible consistency AND brilliance in the field (he made not only the all the plays he should make but most of the difficult ones that become errors for most average firstbasemen and thus baserunners for pitchers -- he'll be in center this year but it's good to know that if Kotchman goes down we can simply plug Erstad back in there and move Figgy in to center.) 3) Defensive flexibility. Piggybacking on last comment. Matt has made this point elsewhere and it is a valuable asset to the team. 4)Smart and agressive baserunning -- Ersty is great at breaking up double plays, knows how to "cut" the bases instead of making wide turns, and of course can turn a game around with his football player's physicality (see my comments on Johnny Estrada play in Erstad's Top #40 section.) 5) Leadership. It seems clear to me that Ersty is the spiritual leader or the "heart" of this team or however you might put it. Sometimes player's whose statistics are not overwhelming nonetheless play an incredibly important role in creating and maintaining team chemistry -- I think of Michael Irvin when he played for the Cowboys (off-field shenanigans notwithstanding.) He was the emotional leader and would almost seem to WILL them to victory at times. Erstad serves this purpose with the Angels.

All of this being said, it is also true that Erstad has historically had great offensive numbers in EVEN NUMBERED years and relatively poor statistics in ODD numbered years. This being 2006 (an even numbered year), for those of you who don't poo poo things like Numerology and Astrology, it may portend a bountiful offensive year for Darin.

Far from being "deadwood," Erstad is the heart of this team (if Scioscia is the "brain" and Figgy is the "feet," who's the backbone?). If he is destined to be gone after this season his departure will create a leadership vacuum that will not be easily filled by anyone currently on the roster or anyone brought in from the outside.

by Jack Frost on Feb 25, 2006 8:44 AM PST up reply actions

Poopooing even numbered years

You forgot to mention that Saturn in Leo will benefit Gemini Darin in a renewed vitality.

Morrissey's a Gemini and look what it has done for his career revival.

by Rev Halofan on Feb 25, 2006 1:31 PM PST up reply actions

Manny's "D"

Answer me this...who's had more assist's in a season...Manny or Vlad?...who has made FAR more errors in a season...Vlad or Manny?...who has a better career fielding PCT.?...Vlad or Manny?

The point is that Manny may have his moments in the field but overall he certainly is at least average and CERTAINLY not the worst!

by DaddyWags on Feb 25, 2006 7:18 PM PST reply actions

Manny's "D" Blows

Here's Gammons on the subject of left fielders and their "D" or lack thereof:

'Left field: Coco Crisp, whose center-field rating is a little better than Johnny Damon's, was the best in left last season; second to Carl Crawford over three years. Three worst for three years: Manny Ramirez, Adam Dunn, Hideki Matsui.'

Based on the work of (also from Gammon's blog) . . .

'. . . John Dewan, the CEO of STATS, Inc. who moved on to found Baseball Info Solutions, has written "The Fielding Bible," with contributions from Bill James. We have all struggled with quantitative analysis on defense, but this isn't some statshead thing created in a cellar at MIT. James explains that Dewan's aides "watched video from every major league game and had recorded every ball off the bat by the direction in which it was hit [the vector], the type of hit [ground ball, fly ball, line drive, popup, mob hit, etc.] and how hard the ball was hit &"'

Link:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter#20060224

by G Abbes on Feb 25, 2006 7:31 PM PST up reply actions

and...

no one ever said Vlad was a great fielder that I'm aware of.

The assists comparison is bunk though because no one runs on Vlad. I wonder how many runs he saves us because of guys never scoring from 2nd on a grounder to right.

by thewebb on Feb 25, 2006 8:40 PM PST up reply actions

C'mon guys

I know that you don't want to give up top prospects, and neither would I, but in order to get value you have to give up value. Please don't go saying that Manny has no value. He does have value. Any guy that hits 45 HR, drives in 144 RBI, has an OBP of .388, an OPS of .982, and hits .292 has got to have some value. I'll admit that he has a shitty attitude, trust me I get tired of it at times. Even if he comes off one of his "moments," the next day he could hit the walk off homer and fans will love him just as much as they used to.

As far as the defense goes, it isn't as great as the stats. Manny knows how the play the Green Monster which helps, as most of his assists come from catching the ball bear handed off of the wall and throwing it to 2nd. Vlad does have better defense because, as one of you said, he is in guys heads. They know that if a groundball is hit to RF and they are on 2nd, they aren't going to test his arm.

As far as what you are giving up (Shields, Figgins, and Wood/Kendrick), they may equal Manny some day, but not right now. Shields is a set-up man, a good one to boot, but that's all he is. Figgins is very valuable because of his ultra utility status. Then comes Wood/Kendrick. Wood COULD hit 30 HR in his prime, but that is only a possibility. I'll give you the fact that he is a top 3 prospect in all of baseball right now, but as I posted earlier a lot of top prospects haven't panned out like they thought they would.

My point is simple, in order to get something you have to give something.

by diamondawgs28 on Mar 2, 2006 3:01 PM PST reply actions