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Baseball prospectus smoking crack

Is Baseball Prospectus smoking crack or is it me smoking crack and reading this article incorrectly?

C r a c k h e a d s

Are they projecting the Angels at 80-82 this season and 4th place in the AL West?  I mean I have my own share of questions about our offense and injuries, but 4th in the AL West?  Not a chance.

This Fan-Post is authored by an independent fan. Tell us what you think and how you feel.

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Last year BP said
we would have the second worst offense in the AL.  BP sucks and PECOTA and eat a d*ck.  Their playing time projections are always crap and they never ever have a response to rookies or people in the lineup without a full seasons experience.  IE Kendrick, Kotch, etc.
No offense? Howie, Kotch and Napoli will change your mind.

by hauldog on Mar 30, 2007 3:35 PM PDT reply actions  

They weren't far from wrong
The Angels had the fourth-worst offense in the AL.
Fire Mickey Hatcher. An entire generation of Angels offense depends upon it.

by scareduck on Mar 30, 2007 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

ridiculous
looks like these guys are writing for Baseball Hippielettuce instead of Baseball Prospectus.

the angels' pitching is WAY too strong to allow a .500 season.

by yeswecan on Mar 30, 2007 3:37 PM PDT reply actions  

I believe...
that BP is also convinced that it's only a matter of time before Frankie literally throws his arm off of his body, leaving only a hideously deformed and bloody stump which will end his career and cancel the Angels' season in one horrificaly violent moment of predestined cruelty because "OH EM GEE, HIS MECHANICS ARE NOT PREEETTY!"

BP has their heads up their own ass.

by Brendo on Mar 30, 2007 3:56 PM PDT reply actions  

That's probably
Will Carroll you're thinking of.
Fire Mickey Hatcher. An entire generation of Angels offense depends upon it.

by scareduck on Mar 30, 2007 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just use astrology to make predictions
About the same low success rate as stats, but chicks totally go for it...

by Rev Halofan on Mar 30, 2007 4:57 PM PDT reply actions  

I like Cereal
Put Kendry Morales at 1B, and move Sean Rodriguez to 3B......NOW LETS GO WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by acuda27 on Mar 30, 2007 6:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Relax
In 2002, Sheehan wrote an AL West preview that didn't mention the Angels once, not even in passing.  Then he wrote a column that said they were one of roughly eight teams that had absolutely no chance, whatsoever, even by a longshot, to make the playoffs.

All they did that year was win the World Series.

I like Sheehan normally, but as a predictor, he sucks ass.

by LA Seitz on Mar 30, 2007 9:30 PM PDT reply actions  

Follow up
Here was his response to the outrage following those columns.  Note the date, still a month before the 2002 season.

FWIW, in an email to me after that season, he congratulated the Angels and issued a bit of a mea culpa.

by LA Seitz on Mar 30, 2007 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

That Mea Culpe is hilarious
in how WRONG it was ... almost EVERYTHING in it is wrong.

I'm looking saner and saner with the zodiac.

by Rev Halofan on Mar 30, 2007 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

i wouldn't have picked the halos to win it all...
in 2002 either.

would you have?

that's what made that year and that WS championship so gratifying...years and years of frustration built, being the underdog, and having the halos come out of nowhere to destroy the yanks and twins in the playoffs, and outlast the giants in the WS.

as pessimistic as i may be/seem, part of it is only because i want that feeling back.  i want to feel like the underdog, and i want it to all pay off by seeing the halos do it again.  and while i feel like it's bound to happen again--sooner than later--, i'm not going to get bent every time some hack/big-time publication says they're picking another team to do better.  part of the magic of 2002, was due to the fact that nobody said they could do it...but they did it.

and it's gonna happen again.

by pedro guerrero on Mar 30, 2007 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

No one has a problem with
the Angels not being picked to win it all or whatever here.  The problem is that they're being picked to be a SUB-.500 TEAM.  Outlandishly retarded.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 31, 2007 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I thought they' be competitive
and the so-called "EXPERT" was just SO SO SO wrong, and in glaring OPPOSITE manners. He was not just a little worng, he was obscenely backwards.

The biases are not in the numbers, they are in the stuff-wads doing the measuring...

by Rev Halofan on Mar 31, 2007 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

And their cherry-picking stats are bullshit
all of those stats measure is how often a guy gets on base, what his BA. AVG is against league average in those circumstances, etc...and then they are forced to assume a lot.  there's NOTHING in those stuffy statistics about how well players "compliment" one another.  how much does eckstein's batting wear down a pitcher?  how much does his extra effort put towards reaching 1st base?  and then, how much does he distract a pitcher long enough to serve up a pitch to glaus that he can put into the seats?  yeah, garret wasn't walking, so his OBP was shot, but 56 how do you measure the importance of his ability to turn on any pitch and put it in for one of 56 doubles?  or maybe erstad's blazing speed down the first base line, or the effort he'll put into knocking the ball out of a catcher's hands?  there was a lot more to the team than stupid calculators could say.  the kind of things that, inevitably, win ball games.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 31, 2007 1:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, there are stats to answer your questions too
--How much does Eckstein wear down the pitcher with his batting?

Could you get a feel for this by looking at the number of pitches he sees per plate appearance? Lots of guys go up there hacking and don't have a real good eye, so they only get 2 or 3 pitches per plate appearance.

--How much extra effort does he put in when trying to get to first base?

OK, you could always measure the amount of time it takes him to get from home to first. If it's not much better than average, then I'd say that it doesn't matter how much effort goes into it. I mean, I'm show as dog shit, but I run like someone lit my ass on fire down to first in my bullshit men's league games. It doesn't help me get there in less than 5 and a half seconds, but boy do I ever try hard.

--How much does he distract the pitcher when he's on base?

You could look at the batters' stats when he's on base vs. when he isn't on base. But that might neglect the effect of a pitcher pitching from the stretch vs. the windup, so you'd probably want to try to correlate against other guys on base instead of Eckstein, multiple guys on base, etc. That one seems pretty hard to isolate, actually.

--How do you measure the importance of 56 doubles by Garret Anderson?

This one's actually been studied and quantified by statisticians a whole lot. If you're willing to look at numbers across all teams for all of baseball history, there is a number for how many runs more a team will score with a man on second base 56 times vs. getting out 56 times. I don't know what kind of crystal ball would let you predict the actual distribution of those 56 plate appearances if it was someone else, or if he weren't getting older/breaking down a little, but there's numbers for that.

--What's up with Darin Erstad's blazing speed?

Is it blazing? I honestly don't know how fast he really is, but there are on base stats for him, and they aren't pretty. baseball-reference.com has it all in black and white, if you want to look. Actually, I think his blazing speed down the line is implicit in the batting average/on base percentage numbers for him. It's not the only thing that's in there, but if you'd like to claim that he's got wheels, I can point to those numbers and claim that even if he had them, it didn't help him out all that much, otherwise, he would have beaten out more grounders to the left side and stolen more bases (or been caught less: 170 SB vs. 51 CS = about 76%, which actually isn't bad at all).

--How much effort does he put into knocking the ball out of a catcher's hands?

Have you ever seen him do that? I haven't watched the man play all that much, but I do know that memorable events stick out in the mind much more readily than non-memorable events. (Remember when Torii Hunter misjudged Kotsay's liner in the Metrodome in the playoffs last year, and it went for an inside the park homer? Man, Torii Hunter must suck.)

What I'm getting at is that the number of times that Erstad has knocked the ball out of a catcher's hands is a countable event. Some enterprising young statistician could go back through all the game footage and count 'em up, and measure it against the number of times it didn't happen with Erstad and against the number of times it happened or didn't happen with the rest of the league. Granted, it's not a stat that you see listed in the box score or in the history books, but you could get a pretty good idea of how Erstad's performance in that area helped his team by counting it up.

 
--"The kinds of things that inevitably win ball games."

One of the things that my dad used to ask my little league team after the game was, "Is a run in the last inning more important than a run in the first inning?" Instinctually, a bunch of us little kids said that the run in the last inning is more important, but really, they're the same value. It might be more obvious in the last inning that if you don't score that run then the team will be worse off, i.e., lose the game, than in the first inning. But if you don't score the run in the first inning, that just means that you have to score it in the last instead.

So if you concentrate on all the little things that win ball games and neglect all the big things that win ball games, what have you gained?

I'll cherry pick from above: Suppose Erstad knocks the ball out of a catcher's glove 6 times in the regular season. That means that he scores on those 6 events when he otherwise would have been out. Take a shot in the dark and say that not only do the 6 runs count for him, but the Angels score an extra 4 runs because they have an extra out to play with each time he does it. Ten runs over the course of a season are probably worth about one and two thirds of a win. Call it 2 wins to make the math easier.

How often do two wins matter over the course of a season? It happens sometimes, but not too terribly often. But get this... if the Angels keep Erstad around and get his 10 extra runs for the season on those plays, and don't sign a guy who would have hit 10 more home runs than him (say, Gary Matthews Jr. 19 HR in 2006 vs. Erstad's 7 HR in 2005), then the difference is wiped out right there.

What I'm trying to get at is that even if you go through all the trouble of measuring the number of times Erstad knocks the ball out of a catchers hands, which I've already noted is a non-trivial task, I'll just show you a guy who hits 10 more homers in the season and tell you to get that guy instead, because it's a tried and true fact that homers actually help a team in a measurable way. All that work for naught!

I know that a bunch of you guys won't care that these things are quantifiable in the first place, because it's fun to say, "I think this guy is good, just because he plays the game the right way", or some other phrase like that. And it pays off like a mother fucker when one of those not very likely events happens (Erstad v. catcher, Figgins making an infielder screw up a rundown because he's hopping around, etc.), because then you get to say to your friends, "See? I told you that guy's awesome!", presumably while gesticulating madly at the TV. Or you get to write it in a newspaper column, or say it while behind the desk of Baseball Tonight while wearing a spiffy tailored suit with one testicle missing.

It's fucking boring to pore over OBP, slugging, ERA and strikeouts, but it sure is reliable.

Just for fun, check out Herb Washington. Charley Finley hired him in '74 to pinch run for him and steal bases. He was a former track star, after all. But he fucking sucked at playing baseball. He only stole 65% of his bases and got caught all the rest of the time. That's not good at all, quite a bit worse than Darin Erstad, even. So it's fun to look at raw ability such as speed batting power, etc., and try to correlate that into something meaningful, but if dude can't choose when to run and when not to run, or if he can't get good jumps off the pitcher, or if he can't lay off bad pitches and pops up and grounds out a lot of the time, than he's not exactly as good as was previously thought. How much a player helps his team is more strongly correlated with certain stats that we can measure and not very strongly correlated with, "Ooh, look at those biceps!"

Anyway, sorry to blather on for so long. I know a lot of you will not care in the least that this kind of stuff goes on in other circles, and I've personally witnessed the vitriol that is sprinkled on statisticians like so much confetti. But some of you might have found it interesting. Good luck this year, guys. (Too bad FSU didn't take yeswecan's bet again, that was fun last year.)

by hunter on Mar 31, 2007 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Read what I said
I didn't say the stats didn't exist, because um...obviously they do.  I said they're not USED in BP's statistical breakdowns for why teams will or will not win championships.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 31, 2007 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Forgot to say
they also tend to use the "runs for" and "runs against" as their constant measure of what will be a winning team.  When a team like Cleveland exists today, it's ridiculously absurd, even if you are a stat freak, to just stare at a piece of paper and say "they had this many, and gave up this many, therefore they will finish with this record".  Averages are all nice, and well and good, but baseball isn't some coin-flip.  You toy with enough averages, and you can really get them to say anything that you want.  I've seen people use them time and again to say that Milton Bradley could turn "this year" into his Gary Sheffield year.  There is too much that BP does NOT measure in their analysis (some statistical, some stuff that just won't show up on a calculator) that to use them as your sole basis for determining wins and losses is just obscene.  

It's almost insulting that someone thinks that they can quantify wins and losses through enough calculation when anyone who REALLY follows the sport knows that you should not and CANNOT create an adequate substitute for actually sitting down, shutting up, and watching and studying the games themselves.  If stats compliment that experience (and they do, especially moreso than other sports), good...but they're not a be-all, end-all.

Oh, and G.A.'s 98OPS+ in 2006?  Yeah, it's "below average", but looking at that in and of itself tells you one thing: he had a below average combination of slugging and on base percentages.  What it won't tell you is that, even though he may have hit below average, his RISP OPS was above average (.820), or that his RISP/2 outs was (32 points about season average), or that his runner on 3rd/less than 2 outs stats were STELLAR  1.075).  Or that most of his career has been marred by low(er) OPS solely because he doesn't walk or get HBP (5 in his career, Biggio does that in one game).  So, people that want to cherry pick stats could tell you very well...yes, GA's OPS/OPS+ has never been that eye-popping, and therefore he's not a "great" batter.  What OPS+ does not account for is one's timeliness in certain situations, even if such stats do exist.  Stats, like everything else can be used and bent to fit one's will.  And BP is no less guilty of doing it than anyone else.

And that comes from someone who loves OPS+, by the way.

by Caseys Kiss of Death on Mar 31, 2007 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

OK, you obviously know what you're talking about
so I'll stop with the schoolhouse lecture (I hope).

I'd actually like to hear the argument about how Milton Bradley could hit like Sheffield. Comparing by age and by number of years in the league doesn't really stand up to examination. Sheffield is obviously the better hitter.

So, I actually am saying that there might be a mathematical model that accurately represents wins and losses. I think you already know about Pythagorean Win-Loss percentage, which basically amounts to playing with the number of runs scored and allowed until you get reasonably close to what actually happened. And that's cool and all, but it describes things that have already happened, which while not totally useless, can only be used as a foundation on which to derive other ideas. Namely, that by scoring more and allowing less, you're going to win more ballgames over the course of the season.

Cleveland's 2006 season is definitely a statistical outlier, and not just because the pythag. formula didn't work for that season. I went down Cleveland's game by game tally, and I noticed that they won a bunch of blowouts, but didn't really lose a bunch of blowouts. I called a differential of 5 runs a blowout, and say that they won 32 and lost 17 by that margin or greater. That definitely exposes a flaw in the formula, namely that by winning a game 15-2, you're tricking the formula into counting that game as maybe 3 wins, when it only counts for 1.

I went looking for a better way and discovered that the baseball-reference.com guy is fooling around with what he calls the Monte Carlo version of the Pythagorean formula, which hopefully filters out some of the not so pretty data. He does that by randomizing the order of the game by game results, pitting one game's offensive output against another game's defensive result. Purists might call me out on this one, but I think that for the purposes of trying to boil a whole season down into a formula that only takes into account runs scored and surrendered, you don't have to treat one game as some immutable thing.

And I think I'm validated in the results of the calculations. Even for the dumb version of the Pythagorean W-L formula, historically it's very accurate, usually within 2 or 3 games. So when you say, "anyone who really follows the sport knows...", it kind of doesn't make sense simply because there are these tools that are really quite accurate.

OK, Garret: I'd say that a 98 OPS+ year is quite average. I mean, it's less than 100, but not that much less. In response to those stats, what was a 100 RISP OPS+, and what was a 100 RISP with 2 outs OPS+? Also, do you think that Garret has a particular ability to hit better than his usual in those situations, or the ability to hit better than the rest of the league in those situations? How many plate appearances did he actually get with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs?

Stats aren't really valid unless your sample size is large enough, which is why it's important to gauge things against multiple seasons of data. And even if those stats really are valid, how many more runs did that create for the team, and how many more wins did he create for the team than just pulling some dude off the waiver wire? If he is better than others at hitting in those situations but he doesn't get a lot of chances to show it, then it isn't really worth that much.

I almost went a whole post again without getting around to responding to your real point. Yeah, I can't defend people that misuse stats in order to win some argument or to convince themselves that something is when it isn't really. Plenty of people do it, too, and it gives sabermetrics a black eye every time someone falls for the small sample size, or doesn't compare against the league as a whole, or doesn't compare against averages across eras of the 20th century.

Anyway, sorry for blasting you in the previous post. I love arguing about baseball, and that's been building up all offseason. I freaking hate the winter.

(Hey, point me at the source for those numbers on Anderson. I want to play around with them a little bit.)

by hunter on Apr 1, 2007 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Haha
Damn bro, you're a dick. A funny one, but how long did it take you to punch a hole in each of his points? I think he was simply saying that the intangibles are what makes the difference in being 90-72 while making the playoffs and being 85-77 and not. Or I guess you could also argue momentum??? Maybe. I'll let you pick mine apart now, have a good time.  

by matt92130 on Mar 31, 2007 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well...
Yeah, I was over the top the first time, my bad, guys. That took about an hour, I guess. And it's fun to turn the crank analytically, especially on things that I've done a lot of thinking about.

Regarding intangibles and momentum: Suppose that there's this celestial teapot. It's in orbit around the sun closer than Mercury, it's too small to detect with our instruments, and it's too hot for us to go there in person to see it. I'm telling you, though, it's there. I promise. Do you believe in the teapot?

by hunter on Apr 1, 2007 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Stats smats
The two things I remember most about 2002, was how lights out the (already good) bullpen became when K-Rod showed up, and how everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, started hitting the ball late in the season.  The total year stats were meaningless.  From around September on, nobody was playing better than the Angels.

by LAJack on Mar 31, 2007 11:28 AM PDT reply actions  

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