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The 100 Greatest Angels - #65, Bill Stoneman

#65 - Bill Stoneman, GM

Career Stats

Bill Stoneman pitched for the Angels for a few months in 1974 at the tail end of a pleasant little career in baseball. 25 years later, he was hired as the General Manager of the Angels and the rest was (and continues to be) history.

Career Trades as of 03/05

Would the Angels have won the 2002 World Series and Division titles in 2004 and 2005 had another besides Bill Stoneman been their General Manager?

My simple answer to this is: NOPE.

How does one gage a successful GM? Looking at Free Agent acquisitions would be deceptive, as they indicate more about ownership's purse-strings than they do. Looking at who was traded and who was given up is a better indication:

Star-divide

Best Trade so far: Kimera Bartee for Chone Figgins

Worst trade: None

Worst move so far: Releasing Bobby Jenks

Best move so far: If Arte gets credit for signing Vlad and Scioscia gets credit for suspending Guillen, Bill Stoneman gets credit for signing Brendan Donnelly in January, 2001.

Major Acquisitions and Expulsions:

IT WORKED!
Angel Career had substantial impact:

Kevin Appier, Chone Figgins, Brad Fullmer, Adam Kennedy.

Versus: Post-Angel career was excellent:
Jim Edmonds, Jose Guillen.

ANALYSIS: Say what you want about clubhouse chemistry, Stoneman got plenty of value for two of the biggest assholes to ever wear a Major League Uniform.

THE JURY'S STILL OUT...
Angel Career may still have some upside:

Edgardo Alfonzo, Scott Dunn, Maicer Izturis, Dustin Moseley, Juan Rivera, J.C. Romero.

Versus: Post-Angel Career may still have some upside:
Dusty Bergman, Alexi Casilla, Steve Finley, Pedro Liriano, Wil Nieves

ANALYSIS: Liriano might be superior to Dunn, Casilla might be better than Izturis one day but Rivera smokes Finley and Romero crushes fellow Lefty Bergman, leaving Alfonzo and Moseley to outperform Nieves.

Mediocre players Bill Stoneman ACQUIRED through trades:
Kent Bottenfield, Wilmy Caceres, Mickey Callaway, Jose Nieves, Sal Fasano, Ron Gant, Gary Glover, Glenallen Hill, Alex Ochoa

Mediocre players Bill Stoneman GOT RID OF through trades:
Kimera Bartee, Darren Blakely, Kent Bottenfield, Wilmy Caceres, Brian Cooper, Seth Etherton, Jorge Fabregas, Mike Fyrhie, Doug Nickle, Ramon Ortiz, Johnny Raburn, Ronnie Ray, Javier Rodriguez, Scott Schoeneweis, Mo Vaughn

COULDA SHOULDA WOULDA...
Players released who are kicking ass:
Bobby Jenks, Derrick Turnbow

THEY MIGHT BE COULDA SHOULDA WOULDA...
Players released who still may have some upside:
Tim Bittner, Zach Sorensen

FINAL ANALYSIS:
Ditching Jenks and Turnbow cost him 10 places on this list. He will always be in the Top 100, but each season will see his position fluctuate.

0 recs | Comment 9 comments

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Worst moves
Gotta disagree about Stoneman's worst moves to date.
  • Re-signing Spiezio.  The excuse was that Speez was a World Series hero, but it was so obvious he was never, ever going to see 2002-like performance again.  At least it was only for a year.
  • Failing to get a real first baseman. The team still is paying for this one, though hopefully Kotch comes through.
  • Eric Owens, Shane Halter, and inattention to the bench. Both Owens and Halter were garbage, and they represented the kind of mistake Stoneman has tended to make in recent years with respect to the bench.  For that matter, you can add
  • Esteban Yan to that list; the bullpen has lately had similar issues.
  • A more recent problem is his tendency to overpay for declining veterans. Steve Finley, Esteban Yan, and Hector Carrasco all come to mind, though you could certainly add Garret Anderson to that list as well.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by scareduck on Dec 22, 2005 6:26 PM PST   0 recs

EO
Owens looked liked a great 4th OF when he was signed. Good speed and batting average. I don't think Stoneman could have seen his bad season coming.
Eat My Angel Dust.

by Angels95 on Dec 24, 2005 9:21 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Good point
it was between Owens and robert Fick - oh and Jeff DaVanon HAHAHAHAHAHAHa

by Rev Halofan on Dec 24, 2005 10:47 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Speak for yourselfs
Owens was just as bad in 2003 as he was in ... 2001. A singles hitter with a low B.A. who didn't even hit doubles or steal bases effectively. A poor man's Henry Cotto. Stoneman's a pretty bad judge at 30-something utility washouts (Halter, Owens, Merloni, Stocker....). The Fonz looks to be the best of the lot.

by mattwelch on Dec 25, 2005 12:18 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

You left out Eckstein
Both as a tremendous acquisition, and a guy who's done real well since being let go.

I haven't worked my way through it yet, but there's a contrarian argument to be made that the Edmonds-Kennedy trade was one of his better ones, even though Jimbo made his HOF run as soon as he switched out of the wings.

The Edmonds-era Angels suffered through three September collapses, and two injury-marred stinkers. Right or wrong, everybody in the organization (from Tavares to Bavasi to Collins to Lachemann to DiSar) pointed to the certain flaky/whiny character of certain players (wink-wink, nudge-nudge), while (wrongly) the media & others portrayed having four talented outfielders (including one who could play Gold Glove 1B) as a "problem."

Meanwhile, the team was still on a mid-market budget, and hadn't had the same full-time 2Bman start consecutive seasons since Luis Sojo in '91-92 (featuring such stinkers in the meantime as Justin Baughman, Torey Lovullo, Harold Reynolds, and the Rod Carewified Damion Easley).

Stoneman & Scioscia take over in 2000, and want to change the profile of the team from a bunch of flaky underachieving chokers with bad dye-jobs.. So they let the second-best pitcher in team history walk, and trade Edmonds for Kennedy, providing stability and pretty good play from a position that had been a crapshoot for a decade, and saving $34 million in the process ($40 million-plus, after you count 2006). The extra $6.2 million a year paid for such useful spare parts as Spiezio and Fullmer, with plenty left over.

And voila! Instead of a bunch of chokers, Scioscia/Stoneman develop a crew of ruthless killers, who seal the deal down the stretches of '02, '04 and '05.

Yes, that might be a bit facile around the edges, but it's striking how no one questions the team's character anymore, while everyone was doing so in the late 1990s. Can this all be chalked up to having the dice roll the right way instead of the wrong way in three Septembers? Maybe.... But trading Edmonds (and then the evil blob Vaughn) allowed Stoneman/Scioscia to shape the culture of the organization, which has been one of their great accomplishments so far.

by mattwelch on Dec 23, 2005 1:46 AM PST   0 recs

I am amazed
that Edmonds has been so healthy in Saint Louis - I would have bet my left nut when the trade went down that Jimbo would have played half seasons for the Cards and been retired by 2004.

by Rev Halofan on Dec 23, 2005 1:57 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

And don't forget the Carew factor
I always thought that Rod Carew, like most great hitters who became hitting coaches, was absolutely terrible at the latter. Edmonds did very well under his tutelage, and took off into the stratosphere as soon as we was set free. 2005 was his only Cardinal season that was as bad as his best Angel season OPS+-wise (1997), and even then only by a whisker (136).

Yesterday I went back and looked at the 18 hitters who played under Rod Carew one year, then moved on to another team the next, to see if there was any kind of pattern. And Oh Jesus, was there.

  • We trade J.T. Snow for Allen Watson, and he goes from .257/.327/.384 with 17 HR and 69/67 R/RBI, to .281/.387/.510, 28 HR, 81/104.
  • Trade Damion Easley for Greg Guhr, and he goes from a final full season as an Angel ('95) of .216/.288/.300, 4 HR, 35/35 ... to a first full Tiger season ('97) of .264/.362/.471, 22 HR, 97/72.
  • Trade Phil Nevin for Andy Sheets (cough), and he basically goes from Jorge Fabregas to Ryan Klesko.
  • Release Gary Gaetti in the middle of a 4-year, $11.4 million contract, then keep on paying him as he hits .287/.328/.462 for the Royals. (He hit 129 HRs total after the Angels gave up on him.)
Of the 18 players, 10 improved measurably (by 11 or more OPS+ percentage points), 7 stayed basically the same (+/- 10 OPS percentage points) ... and only one player out of 18 -- Tony Phillips between '95 and '96 -- got significantly worse after leaving Rod's care, and even he was only by 13 percentage points in his age-37 year.

If I was to include in this study all the 1999 Angels who suddenly blossomed in 2000 ... I think you could make the beginnings of an argument that Rod Carew was the worst hitting coach at least in Angels history.
 

by mattwelch on Dec 23, 2005 2:20 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Nice research
except I don't want to believe you if only that it would give Mickey Hatcher a SHRED of credibility and a claim to the 2002 Championship.

by Rev Halofan on Dec 23, 2005 2:26 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Fair enough
When I have a moment, I'll check three other things:
  1. The record of guys who came in to Carew's system, before and during.
  2. The whole 1999-2000 thing, and
  3. The exact same deal for Hatcher.
I think Hatcher will come out looking bad, too, especially with the newly freed's walk rates ... but the Spiezio collapse should help him.

And I forgot to mention two things -- 1) it was based on players who had at least 150 ABs in both years; and 2) when players were traded mid-season, I generally used the last full Carew season & the first full non-Carew season, with the exception of maybe Chad Kreuter.

by mattwelch on Dec 23, 2005 2:36 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

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