Post-Frankie Pen

by Rev Halofan on Jan 21, 2008 1:42 AM PST in Angels News

Francisco Rodriguez may see his days as an Angel numbered.

He is asking for $12.5 million in arbitration, the Angels have offered $10 million. The last Angel to win in arbitration over the team was David Eckstein prior to the 2004 season. He was released the following December.

Absent Frankie, the Angels have adequate in-house closers in Justin Speier and Scot Shields.

Both are deeply experienced with pressure situations. Both are signed for 3 more years. Either would likely have a lower innings-pitched workload as a closer than in the current middle-relief/set-up roles they have been assigned. These lower innings pitched would inevitably lead to better pitching performances, as opposed to the perceived decline each is assumed to possibly be having in 2008.

With Shields and Speier ensconced in the set-up/closer roles, Darren Oliver becomes the critical 7th-inning arm with Chris Bootcheck and Dustin Moseley neck and neck for the Righty men-on-base pressure cooker position, with the weaker of the two likely assuming the mop.

Keep your eyes on Rich Thompson for a prominent role, as well as the ever-present Jason Bulger looking to break out.

The most interesting possibility is Ervin Santana pitching in two-inning spurts from the pen were Joe Saunders to assume the 5th spot in the rotation. While Ervin is legend as having his head screwed on sideways in day games, away games and Full Moon madness nightmares, the big paydays that await elite closers coupled with the ADDHD cure that 40-pitch outings seem to enact - these could be the cure for the Common Ervin and make Black Magic arise in a positive manner for the 2008 Angels.

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Issues

Oliver isn't signed beyond 2008, so it's unwise to count on him beyond this year.

Keep in mind that Frankie will be with the Halos in 2008; it's 2009 and beyond that we're talking about here.

Another dark horse is Jose Arredondo. A bit of a headcase, apparently, but he throws serious heat. If his offspeed stuff becomes adequate, he's definitely in the late-innings mix (maybe a 7th inning role in front of Speier & Shields).

by jjackflash on Jan 21, 2008 7:37 AM PST reply actions

I love frankie

however I am willing to give him up if needed. My only problem is letting him walk... We have an awesome piece to someones puzzle here and should use him as the barging chip he is.
Hey doesn't San Diego need a young dominant closer to replace the old dominant closer, who is at the end? Wow a Frankie for K Greene + a good Minor leaguer sound like a great swap to me

by Sinatrasratpack on Jan 21, 2008 7:48 AM PST reply actions

Trade him

Not only because of the money. How long is his arm going to hold up with that violent throwing motion. I know he is only 26, but his arm makes him lose his balance after every pitch.

That's if you call October, "the future"

by justanotherhalosvictory on Jan 21, 2008 8:27 AM PST up reply actions

San Diego

doesn't value relievers as highly as you think they do

Get rid of Quinlan

by edhoo on Jan 21, 2008 10:35 AM PST up reply actions

barring a collapse in 08

there won't be a trade of Frankie in 2008. Not unless we majorly collapse. I just can't see a contenting team for the WS trade their closer (a great one at that) just because they might lose him in FA. Almost never happens. You make the run at the WS and see what happens afterwards.

Frankie will either resign or he'll walk via FA after the season.

Assuming he left in 2008, then i think saying Oliver would be the 2009 7th inning guy is wrong. First off, Oliver is onlt signed thru 2008. Second, there is no way the Angel FO goes into 2009 with Oliver as the 7th inning guy -- either someone gets signed for the BP via FA or someone internally steps up via improvement to take the job (Jose Arredondo, O'Day, Santana).

by TTTT on Jan 21, 2008 9:40 AM PST reply actions

I like Rich Thompson

He put up nice numbers with a good K rate last year, he just decided to go homerun prone in the few innings he was in the majors. If he can fix that problem I think he will turn into a fine reliever.

Get rid of Quinlan

by edhoo on Jan 21, 2008 10:34 AM PST reply actions

watch out for jordan walden...

he's a big strong kid who throws hard. he's a 2-3 years away but i can see him making a transition to the pen a la papelbom in boston. from everything that's out there in print on him he's projected as a starter but he might have a good mental make-up to be a closer in the future. imagine bobby jenks w/out the straight jacket.

by thejd on Jan 21, 2008 10:41 AM PST reply actions

You don't

move a phenom like that to the pen unless he fails as a starter unless you're completely desperate (or if there's no room in the rotation).

I personally think Boston's making a mistake by keeping Papelbon in the 'pen. I think they'd be better off with him pitching 200 innings rather than 50.

by jjackflash on Jan 21, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions

Bad sentence

Should read:

You shouldn't move a phenom like that to the pen unless: (1) he fails as a starter; (2) you're completely desperate; or (3) there's no room in the rotation.

by jjackflash on Jan 21, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions

the papelbon move to the pen...

has obviously had pretty bad results to this point.

by thejd on Jan 21, 2008 11:02 AM PST reply actions

I don't like it

It severely depletes the depth of our pen. As much as everyone's been hating on Frankie lately, he's still one of the top 5 most consistent closers in baseball.

I think that if Frankie walks, Shields will be just as sketchy and nerve-wracking as Frankie is to ya'll right now. And we also wouldn't have a guy who could go 2 innings four nights a week to GET IT to the closer.

I really think we need to sign him.

Read my bullshit at http://mvn.com/mlb-source/author/seth.keichline/

by Ty Webb on Jan 21, 2008 11:29 AM PST reply actions

The more I think about it

The more I think you're right. K-Rod is reliable, one of the best every year, and really sets the tone for the pen. As it stands right now, he's also a good bet for eventually setting some records where saves are concerned. It would have been a good idea, in retrospect, for Stoneman to resign Frankie long-term last year rather than wait until this year. It's a lot of money to pay a closer, but that's what the top closers are making these days. Both Speier and Shields could have gotten closer money but came here knowing they'd most likely be set-up guys. That tells you something about them.

~Till the Halo burns out...

by Zu Long on Jan 21, 2008 2:57 PM PST up reply actions

But...

Shield has a clause in his contract that escalates his salary if he finishes a certain amount of games...

Shields could close - and close well - if needed.

Jimmuscomp

Haloville- Land of the Angels
Homepage

by jimmuscomp on Jan 21, 2008 4:35 PM PST up reply actions

But

If Shields closes, it severely depletes our bullpen as a whole. Kiss best bullpen in baseball, which we've arguably been over the past 5 years, goodbye.

Read my bullshit at http://mvn.com/mlb-source/author/seth.keichline/

by Ty Webb on Jan 22, 2008 8:22 AM PST up reply actions

That titled ended a long time ago

Angels were 20th in relief ERA last year

Get rid of Quinlan

by edhoo on Jan 25, 2008 11:25 PM PST up reply actions

krod and his agent have shown...

little to no sign of wanting a long term deal. the subject has been brought up the last 2-3 off seasons. and they want to play the arbitration game and sign a long term deal as a free agent.

by thejd on Jan 21, 2008 3:50 PM PST reply actions

I love K-Rod...

But I'd rather use him as trade bait at the trade deadline. We should have a solid 90-100 games with him and then deal for that elusive bat. But, on the flip side of that, he hasn't broken down yet... but what if this is the year he fractures something with that wild-ass delivery??? Enough with what-if's, pay him at the arbitration hearing and then deal him to the Phillies along with either Aybar or Izturiz for Jimmy Rollins. They have no closer... but then again, would they really trade their leadoff man who hits 30HR's, knocks in 90 RBI's, bats .296, and steals 41SB's a year??? Maybe throw in Brandon Wood, they don't have a 3rd baseman either.

Jimmy Rollins - SS
Howie Kendrick - 2nd
Torii Hunter - CF
Vladamir Guerrero - RF
Garret Anderson - DH
Gary Matthews - LF
Casey Kotchman - 1st
Mike Napoli or Jeff Mathis - C
Chone Figgins - 3rd

SP1: John Lackey
SP2: Kelvim Escobar
SP3: Jered Weaver
SP4: Jon Garland
SP5: Joe Saunders
BP: Ervin Santana
BP: Chris Bootcheck
BP: Dustin Mosely
SU: Justin Spier
CL: Scot Shields

by matt92130 on Jan 21, 2008 4:29 PM PST reply actions

Do you have anymore...

opium?

Jimmy Rollins isn't going to be traded for a closer. I don't even think that's legal, especially if that closer is going to be a FA at seasons' end.

Jimmuscomp

Haloville- Land of the Angels
Homepage

by jimmuscomp on Jan 21, 2008 5:09 PM PST up reply actions

Yeah...

right here in my pocket. No bud, that's why I offered K-Rod, Aybar, AND Brandon Wood. To me, that's not completely crazy. Three young, and promising youngsters for a proven all-star. It works for three reasons:

They seriously do not have a closer. K-Rod is easliy top 5 in baseball.
They do not have a 3rd baseman. Wood will likely be a 25-30 homer threat for them for years to come.
Aybar will take over at SS for Rollins.

They get a lot and we're dealing from a deep team. The Phillies bullpen last year had a 5.31 ERA, and converted 42 out 63 saves. K-Rod had a 2.81 ERA, and converted 40 out 46 save opportunities. Seems like they could use some help out of the pen. They also used 3 different closers last year.

Maybe you think I'm high... but the numbers don't lie, and the addition of Brandon Wood, and Erik Aybar solidify the deal.

If your weakness was your bullpen, you'd be foolish, at the very least, not to seriously consider this deal.

06/13/05: Signed five-year, $40 million contract w/2011 option.

by matt92130 on Jan 21, 2008 6:02 PM PST up reply actions

No, it isn't that it's Rollins...

it's that he is the FACE of the Philly Phranchise along with Howard and Utley. I just don't see them trading him for anything. I think your proposal is legit - I just don't see that happening from their end.

Jimmuscomp

Haloville- Land of the Angels
Homepage

by jimmuscomp on Jan 21, 2008 9:08 PM PST up reply actions

You're right...

You're absolutely right. I'm just trying to come with scenarios for us here on the site to discuss. It's not like we have major waves of info coming in for us to chew on... but you're right, I agree, Rollins is the face of the Philly organization and it's highly unlikely we'd be able to deal for him.

by matt92130 on Jan 23, 2008 12:44 AM PST up reply actions

I like optimism,

but Jimmy Rollins..............is optimistic.

by wumbug on Jan 21, 2008 7:33 PM PST up reply actions

lmao

That was funny

they aren't trading Rollins

Get rid of Quinlan

by edhoo on Jan 21, 2008 6:07 PM PST up reply actions

You are exactly right ............. with one twist

I agree with your total observation with the exception of waiting until the trade deadline. If the Phillies are still in it by the end of July they won't want to trade Rollins, he will have been a big piece of that and they will have had someone else in their closer role, and if their contending then that closer has had something to do with their success. Make the trade now and let Shields ease into that role during the spring. I would offer Aybar, K-Rod, Wood and Adenhart if need be. Does this make sense or am i smokin something ?????

by cookieman 57 on Jan 21, 2008 8:51 PM PST up reply actions

Why those guys?

So I hear the thought on trading F-Rod but please why would you have to put together such a huge package in order to get Rollins? He is a very good player but that deal is just not going to take place.

Looks like a lot of you have forgotten that the Phillies made a very good trade already for a closer. Brad Lidge can get it done for the Phillies

by Angel Aviator on Jan 21, 2008 10:04 PM PST up reply actions

Hmm...

Well you have a point. I didn't see that they traded for Lidge. But he isn't exactly a lock down closer... he's had success, but he's also had some major disappointments. No substance to my Rollins trade theory, just throwing out the idea based on need and ability.

by matt92130 on Jan 23, 2008 12:40 AM PST up reply actions

I missed something...

The Phillies traded for Brad Lidge. Not that he's a great closer, but they did just trade for him I think at world series end. I wish the Angels would make that trade but as a few others here pointed out, Rollins is the face of that franchise along with Howard and Utley. Hell, he won an NL MVP award. Too bad too... it would make sense for both clubs being our needs and all but I understand the attachment. Can you imagine the Angels trading Vlad for younger prospects??? Haha, not likely.

by matt92130 on Jan 23, 2008 12:48 AM PST up reply actions

If I'm not mistaken

the Phillies acquired Brad Lidge from Houston to be their closer.

by G Abbes on Jan 22, 2008 7:54 AM PST up reply actions

I like K-Rod

but I would still trade him. If Reagins doesn't think that he will be able to sign him long term then he needs to be traded now where we recieve value in an area of need. I'm just as comfortable when Shields comes in as when Frankie comes in - they both go through bad stretches but bot are solid. If you can trade K-Rod + Aybar or someone for a solid 3B or SS + a solid AAA arm with lots of upside/promise then I would support that...

Wanted: Any position player with power

by gorams77 on Jan 21, 2008 6:17 PM PST reply actions

mmm

If Mariano Rivera is worth 15 then Frankie is worth 12.5. However, going to arbitration is the kiss of death for an Angel. On the other hand, Houston Street just signed for 3.3, I believe. Sure he was injured for part of last year, but it shows that a 22 - 24 year old talent is to be found by organizations that recognize talent.

So goodbye Frankie, thanks for 2002. Hope you're traded as soon as possible.

for those academics visit http://paperesearch.blogspot.com/

by roidrage on Jan 21, 2008 7:14 PM PST reply actions

Would we consider....

I hope we keep K-Rod, but if we can't resign him would we consider Joe Nathan as a free agent option. Wouldn't he be cheaper to get and maybe more consistant.

by HapaAngel on Jan 22, 2008 4:32 PM PST reply actions

Sporting News Reports...

With the Los Angeles Angels' blessing, closer Frankie Rodriguez got extensive work in the Venezuelan winter league, pitching 17 innings in 16 appearances. Rodriguez took the step in an attempt to eliminate control issues that arose last season. He allowed a career-high 4.54 walks per nine innings, the highest rate among the 18 closers with at least 30 saves.

Is this a good thing, or does this further strengthen some opinions that he is due for a breakdown and/or NOT a top 5 closer?

by matt92130 on Jan 24, 2008 11:50 AM PST reply actions

Getting sharp

It is a good thing because he basically gets in shape during the off-season. Where does it say it "further strengthen some opinions that he is due for a breakdown and/or NOT a top 5 closer?"

He hasn't broken down yet and contrary to a core of Angels' fans opinions, he is probably in the Top 5 closers among all of baseball.

by Halos2002 on Jan 24, 2008 12:37 PM PST reply actions

That's my post you referencing...

I meant it's a popular opinion that with his violent delivery, it's more likely (Not will happen), but more likely for him to break down as he get's older. As far as closers go in baseball... he gets the job done. But you can't say with a straight face that when he comes in you're not at 90% sure he's going to get the job done. It seems like he's always one pitch away from blowing it. For instance, this past years ALDS, ManRam took flight and in a real big way. And yes I know you can argue this for Hoffman who got lit up by the Rockies, and Rivera who was beat by the Indians. These things happen:

Valverde, Cordero, Hoffman, Jenks, Paplebon, Street, Putz, Saito, Nathan, Isringhausen, Rivera... they all had similiar numbers last year. K-Rod was tief for 5th in saves, 10th in ERA with closers over 30 saves, he ranked 21st in walks for all closers. Saunders had almost double K-Rods innings and they walked the same amount of batters. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, yes, he can be dominant, but he's a not a top-5 closer. I'd take Paplebon, Street, Putz, Saito, Nathan, Hoffman, Jenks, and Rivera over K-Rod. I will admit, no closer is as exciting to watch as K-Rod, but 12 mil is a lot for someone who isn't a top 5 closer. Spend it on the offense and we'll fill his role with Sheilds who makes a 1/3 of what K-Rod is asking for.

by matt92130 on Jan 26, 2008 8:06 AM PST up reply actions